Vsse

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:25 pm

Your are right:

my mistake, here is the correction:

Saying that VMC demo will be an easier exercice with a propeller feathered than with a feathered windmilling is a wrong statment

I will correct it in the previous post thanks.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:31 pm

Isis, please read:

Isis:

you are right: for a real engine failure, you will loose control sooner (higher speed) with the dead engine windmilling in addition you will have more drag.

However if we speak about the VMC demo (and it was the subject) it will easier to practice with one engine windmilling because:

-The recognition of the loss of control will be easier and frank,

-You will lose the control most probably ( at low altitude) above stall, which is in itself a good thing,

-Any way you will loose control at a higher speed than with a feathered prop, and this is MUCH SAFER (isn' t it one of the subject of the thread: safety?)

-The recover will be easier.

Saying that VMC demo will be an easier exercice with a propeller feathered than with a feathered windmilling is a wrong statment.

I have to work on my english I know. I will do my best to improve it.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:33 pm

Isis you wrote:

If you want to make it a bit more difficult leave the dead engine windmilling....

... which is a correct statement. Besides, conducting a Vmc demo with the prop feathered wouldn't be a Vmc demo as this is not the condition under which Vmc is calculated.

If the exercise we are speaking about is VMC demo I say again:wrong.
Why?

Look at my post above. I give you facts.

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:42 pm

I am not arguing with your previous post - at least not all of it. I just wanted to point out your typos cause they very well may have confused other readers.

I stand by all of my previous statements. They are correct in theory and in practice.

Be careful what you argue/point out: you admitted your comprehension was marginal, it might end up causing more confusion.

Have a good night and fly safe,
- Isis

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:43 pm

Flight Instructor, you have a knack for being an ass. Yes you are correct power first then lower the nose. I actually hope you are doing both simultaneously to improve your chances of success.

I was actually trying to help justify your point for you, even though I don't agree with the excercise necessarily. But good job on reading into that one.

In addition, I am not currently flying a twin, nor have I for the last few months. I can assure you that when I was I was well versed in the aircraft checklists. Instead I don't have to worry about such things as VMC in a S.E. at 270kts.

I provided above why I believe that this exercise isn't entirely safe. Stats on this type of accident aren't all that easy to find. Even if there hasn't been an accident so far, that means that there never will be right? Just like An airliner with 2 or more engines will never have a total power loss or total hydraulic failure. Oops wait it has happened before. I love tombstone technology don't you?

I hope next time you don't get all bent out of shape about the little things in my post and focus on the message itself.

Good job Jack Ass.

P.S. I'm anticipating the "having those two items out of order isn't a little thing............"

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:44 pm

Isis you wrote:

Besides, conducting a Vmc demo with the prop feathered wouldn't be a Vmc demo as this is not the condition under which Vmc is calculated.

Wrong again: VMC is the speed at wich you will loose control, it can be within a large range of speed because you can lose control with different configuration.

The day you lose control with a real engine failure, the VMC will depend on the configuration of your aiplane (flaps, feathered prop or not, CG, weight, air density...).

VMCA (the red line on your airspeed indicator) is A FIX VALUE calculated with a precise configuration, standard density....

VMC is the actual speed at wich you will lose control, it varies, at the configuration and density vary.

You can practice VMC demo at different configuration.

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:47 pm

This thread has reached VMC!!!

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:48 pm

BTD:

was actually trying to help justify your point for you, even though I don't agree with the excercise necessarily

Sorry about that. I was rude with you. I am sure you are doing very well in your PC12, wich is a good airplane. You are right: no VMCA on the PC12

Sorry again.

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:59 pm

Man, am I ever glad the twin I fly has no VMC, I don't even have to think about this junk

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:00 pm

Isis:

you admitted your comprehension was marginal, it might end up causing more confusion.

Admitting a typo doesn' t mean I say my comprehension is marginal.

My comprehension is very clear about this subject.

Read again my posts this last 24 hours, I keep saying the same thing. And I give facts.
I say that VMC demo is safer and easier with one engine windmilling.

Here is my first post on the windmilling issue:

Quote:
If you want to make it a bit more difficult leave the dead engine windmilling....

Wrong.

If you leave the dead engine windmilling, the exercise will be much easier. The recovery much easier.
The loss of control very easy to identify. VMC speed well above stall speed.

The most challenging exercise is practiced in New Zealand where they set cruise power on one engine and the othe simulate engine failure.

My second post on the subject:

I say again you are wrong. When "playing around VMC" (your words) it makes the exercise easier with the "dead engine windmilling", this is safer aswell because is increases your VMC, so you will fly well above the stall "when playing around VMC", and if you lose control the recover will be easier.

and here I explain why:

you are right: for a real engine failure, you will loose control sooner (higher speed) with the dead engine windmilling in addition you will have more drag.

However if we speak about the VMC demo (and it was the subject) it will easier to practice with one engine windmilling because:

-The recognition of the loss of control will be easier and frank,

-You will lose the control most probably ( at low altitude) above stall, which is in itself a good thing,

-Any way you will loose control at a higher speed than with a feathered prop, and this is MUCH SAFER (isn' t it one of the subject of the thread: safety?)

-The recover will be easier.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:00 am

Wow, I can't believe this thread grew so fast over night!
Anyways...to conclude!

I don't want to continue this debate any further, but most of the schools in my area are giving in-flight VMC demos...

Now I just want to know, is it wrong that these schools are giving VMC demos to Multi students?

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:10 am

No Iceman, it's not wrong. A Vmc demo can be done safely at altitude with the right instructor by your side, under simulated conditions. As a side note, our training sylabus is approved by Transport Canada - so they know about the in-flight Vmc demo.

flight instructor: I stand by my statement. You want to argue technicalities - fine. In case you were confused, I was agreeing with you - initialy. Then you got all 'ass-ish' as BTD put it nicely and decided to open fire on everyone.

BTD: I'm gonna disagree with you. I don't think this thread has reached Vmc. I think we've reached a total catastophic dual engine failure!

- Isis

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:15 am

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about the following:

"Don't fly slower than Vmc. Don't fly faster than Vne"

There are even red lines on the air speed indicator marking
these airspeeds. How convenient.

I was just wondering, similar to the Vmc demo, do instructors
these days like to demonstrate what happens when you
exceed Vne?

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:23 am

Hedley wrote:I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about the following:

"Don't fly slower than Vmc. Don't fly faster than Vne"

There are even red lines on the air speed indicator marking
these airspeeds. How convenient.

I was just wondering, similar to the Vmc demo, do instructors
these days like to demonstrate what happens when you
exceed Vne?

Well of course you don't go to go to red line. That's asking for it!

When we do VMC demos, usually we will keep a bit of power on the "simulated dead engine" & let the airspeed slowly come down.

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:27 am

Isis wrote: And finally, I do demonstrate the onset of Vmc with my students. No, I am not a crazy test pilot nor do I engage in any recreational drugs. Since Vmc is a function of control, I can SIMULATE Vmc by removing the amount of control the student has.

In level cruise flight, I simulate the engine failure allowing the student to conduct his checks to a point: Control - Power - Drag - Identify, Verify STOP.

At this point I position myself on the rudder pedals so as to limit the amount of travel. In the meantime, I harp on heading and altitude control. Eventually, one of two things will happen: a/c will approach the stall, or student will have full aileron, partial rudder (as much as I will allow) and yet the a/c will continue turning in the opposite direction. Voila! SIMULATED Vmc Demonstration. The beauty is that the airspeed rarely drops below 70 kts - 14 above the aircraft's Vmc. Read: Well above redline

- Isis

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:34 am

Why no Vne demos?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:40 am

As a side note, our training sylabus is approved by Transport Canada - so they know about the in-flight Vmc demo.

AAAhhhh, now I feel so much better knowing TC approves it.

I believe that TC sees nothing wrong with teaching students to fly circuits in a Beech Baron with the gear down either, now there is an interesting airplane to demo VMC in and I bet it would be a real eye opener as a VMC vehicle with the gear down.

Hedley, I sure hope Breitling and Red Bull don't read Avcanada and find out I don't know how to fly an airplane.....

...I would hate for Breitling to ask for that nice expensive watch back that they gave me for all those years flying under their sponsorship......just imagine the shame I would feel Hedley if they find out I don't know how to handle the VMC envelope of flight.

Oh by the way I just got a Xmas card from Glen Dell and Jackie and God forbid that Glen read this and find out I'm not up to standard..

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:00 am

Is it really necessary to gloat to everybody that your the best in the world.

We believe you!

BTW, I won a little digital Casio watch at an airport raffle last year! YEAH!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:25 am

Is it really necessary to gloat to everybody that your the best in the world.

It gives this forum a fair balance THEICEMAN as it allows the people who browse this thread to see how little you know.

That is how people learn, by using comparison as a learning factor they can then make sound decisions..

Here is another example:

BTW, I won a little digital Casio watch at an airport raffle

A raffle is pure luck, Breitling do not give their watches away based on luck.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:42 am

Wow, your EGO is bigger then a 777..

Relax, the watch thing was a joke....get it?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:07 am

THEICEMAN:

There are a lot of people who read this forum, the forum is about flight training.

There are two schools of opinion here regarding demonstrating flight regimes that approach the danger area of flight.

Here is your position:

I don't want to continue this debate any further, but most of the schools in my area are giving in-flight VMC demos...

Now I just want to know, is it wrong that these schools are giving VMC demos to Multi students?

When we have two different opinions being put forward on a flight training forum it is imperative that those who read these discussions have the opportunity to examine the opinions expressed by those who are putting forth their opinions.

I am stating my credentials to back up my opinion so those who wish to examine each side of this discussion can make an informed decision as to which side of this discussion would be the most reasonable method of training to choose.

I and others here feel that demonstrating VMC to an ab-initio student does not justify the inherent risk of loss of control in a twin engine airplane.

I use my credentials to back up my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:44 am

credentials to back up my opinion

An idea I had a while back was that if you held an ATPL, Joe
could add something next to your name to indicate as such.

I hasten to add that an ATPL is no guarantee of knowledge,
but it would tend to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:03 pm

An idea I had a while back was that if you held an ATPL, Joe
could add something next to your name to indicate as such.

I hasten to add that an ATPL is no guarantee of knowledge,
but it would tend to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Good idea.

Sort of a moderator in these discussions.

Only those who submit verifiable proof of experience would be approved for the icon next to their name.

That may help separate the wannabes from those who have experience.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:54 pm

First of all, that ATPL thing is a heck of an idea. If I could expand on it, maybe there should be a system (coded) behind anyone's name who wants to submit their proof...ie. 1 student pilot 2. apprentice amd 3.did not wish to supply proof,4. commercial 5.licensed ame 6 ATPL...you get the idea. It would be interesting to see the "experts"

Now the bottom line for this whole discussion, for me is two fold.

Inexperienced, and particularily if younger, pilots tend to not know what they dont know.
Experienced old pilots tend to have forgotten stuff they did know.

I find that many of these discussions jar my memory on things I had really not thought about. It is why I troll the flight training section. Also, the quality of our inexperienced new hires seems to be deteriorating. They seem to know everything and cant fly worth ....well not the same as they did even a few years ago

I do worry however about some of the rationalizations that go on, not only on this topic, but on others as well. I think if I was an instructor (my instrutor rating expired sometime in the 80's) I would take a step back and ask myself why all these old guys think this is an unnecessary and dangerous thing.

Iceman wrote

Now I just want to know, is it wrong that these schools are giving VMC demos to Multi students?

Wrong is not the correct word. It is unnecessary. The rationalization as near as I can judge from those on this thread is that it is part of a better training program. I think from the number of us that have thousands of hours in our log books, those that rationalize this way should give some thought to that logic.
I can not even argue about it anymore. It baffles my mind. If I was taking the devil'sadvocate position, I would say that the demo is instilling a false sense of confidence in a student that they can nudge up to the edge of VMC and walk away. Far better to teach them how not to get to VMC. As to the "examples" given by some posters. Typical flight school make believe. And to the question again, if you are a flight school you gotta love instructors who pride themselves in teaching things they dont have to....more multi PIC time for the instructor. More revenue for the flight school....and darn if we are not doing a better job

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:12 pm

Isis:

In case you were confused, I was agreeing with you - initialy. Then you got all 'ass-ish' as BTD put it nicely and decided to open fire on everyone.

I have already apologized for that and said sorry to BTD.

I always admit quickly when I am wrong, what I did.

There are even red lines on the air speed indicator marking
these airspeeds.

Very well said.
But I hope that we will understand before the end of this thread that VMC is not VMCA. VMC demo is not done at VMCA.

VMCA: the red line on your airspeed indicator. (calculated by the manufacturer with worst CG, gross weight, critical engine fails, standard density....)

VMC: the actual speed at wich you will lose control. In a training environment with an experienced instructor, you will lose control (vmc) ALWAYS above VMCA (red line). To achieve that you can freeze the controls at Vsse for example, or read again the Isis post she explained that nicely.

The goal of the exercice IS to lose control (above VMCA and stall, an experienced instructor knows how to do that) to put you on a situation from which you actually have to recover from this real lost of control, safely.

During the recover (your nose is already down, the good engine is at idle, IMPOSSIBLE to lose control in this situation) you may reach the read line during a short period of time before the speed increases again, but at this stage that' s better to look outside, even with a glass cockpit airplane.

When you practice the stalls with your multi, you go below red line (VMCA). The stall speed is below this red line.

Don' t try this exercise alone or with little experience.