Have you taken an underwater egress course?

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:10 am

I'm going to ask to Brian about the impeding of egress by a life jacket. I can understand how it could make things more difficult, but at the same time, is that difficulty more, the same or less than that of acquiring and doning the life jacket? I keep thinking ... Dave got out, even though he was wearing a floater coat, probably easier because (we think) he was in the front though ...

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:00 am

200hr Wonder wrote:I did egress training in a pool and it was quite good, however to make it much more effective I think some freezing cold water would be better for the training. Easy to undo belts, and hold your breath when the water is a toasty 80F. Not so hard when it is hovering around freezing and the shock alone of hitting the water sucks your breath away.

As for life vests, wheel based aircraft hopping between Seachelt, Qualicum Beach and Powell River I wore a constant wear one all the time this summer. Funny how the engine made fewer strange noises at middle crossing.

Wear your flight suit and put elastic bands around the pant and arm cuffs and then pour three or four bags of ice down your suit, That would be pretty realistic

CD · Post by CD » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:53 am

Widow wrote:And in my next letter to TCCA (coming soon!), I will be recommending egress training as mandatory for commercial float pilots/operators (yeah, I think the boss oughta take it too, so he/she "gets it").

This is the process to follow if you want to recommend a regulatory change:

REQUESTS FOR REGULATORY ACTION
(INVOKING CARAC)

3.1 General

Anyone may request the CARAC to consider issuing, amending or revoking a regulation, standard or advisory material. Accordingly, the following details the procedures for "Invoking CARAC". These procedures are illustrated in Appendix 13.

Anyone wishing to "Invoke CARAC" shall do so, in writing, to

Transport Canada
Civil Aviation
Ottawa, ON, K1A 0N8
Attn.: Chief, Regulatory Affairs (AARBH)

Requests are to be accompanied by appropriate documentation in order to ensure a prompt and concise review of the proposal. The following details the information that should be provided:

* historical and technical background;
* the advantages and disadvantages of the proposal containing any * information, views or arguments available to the petitioner to support the action sought, including reasons why the granting of the request would be in the interest of aviation safety or the public;
* the expected impact on aviation safety and the environment;
* where possible, consideration of the approach of other aviation authorities to the same issue;
* the anticipated economic impact; and
* any other related material.

CARAC Management Charter and Procedures (2003 Edition)

CD · Post by CD » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:09 am

Widow wrote:I'm going to ask to Brian about the impeding of egress by a life jacket. I can understand how it could make things more difficult, but at the same time, is that difficulty more, the same or less than that of acquiring and doning the life jacket? I keep thinking ... Dave got out, even though he was wearing a floater coat, probably easier because (we think) he was in the front though ...

Another thing to consider is the different bouyancy of the various pieces of equipment. A TSO'd life preserver has much more bouyancy than a UL or CGSB certified PFD. Even within the CGSB standards, there are different bouyancy requirements specified. There is also the question of inherently bouyant vs. manually inflatable devices.

These issues will also make a difference in the ability to egress.

Another source you should consider is Doug at Equipped to Survive. I know that we've discussed his work in the past but that was more for the 406 MHz ELTs I think:

Equipped to Survive: Aviation Life Vests
Equipped to Survive: Ditching
Equipped to Survive Foundation

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:44 pm

A quick promo for Aviation Egress Systems ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K3R_nq4i1aM

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:53 pm

NO. And I have no plans to. Ever.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:55 pm

Don't like water, Doc?

The Other Kind · Post by **The Other Kind** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:39 pm

I have a few thousand hours on floats and have never taken the course. I looked into it a few times and tried to get my employers to send us for the training but none would, citing cost as the prohibitive factor. In fact, I don't know of any commercial operator that actually sent their crew to this course, nor do I know any float pilots that have had the training. It could just be the region (Ontario) I was flying in though.

I have no plans to take the course in the future since it's not relevant to the type of flying I do now.

flyinthebug · Post by **flyinthebug** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:01 am

I took Bryans course as well and my employer (Harbour air at the time) footed the bill and was happy to do so. This course is invaluable if the day ever comes where you have to get out. I highly recommend it!
Fly safe all

viccoastdog · Post by **viccoastdog** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:19 pm

All of our pilots (we're a small floatplane company at Pat Bay, so it's only 3 or 4 pilots) have to take the Bryan's course after hire and usually within a couple of months. The company pays for it. Some already had the training from a previous employer. Everyone who took it had very possitive comments about the course. Honestly, it would be best to have this training completed before oour new hires start flying, and we should renew the training every couple of years, but so far that hasn't been happening.

I took the training when Bryan had the cockpit mock-ups sliding down rails in to the pool - that was perhaps the most realistic kind of training he could offer without actually being in a plane.

On a few occasions I wore a Mustang similar to what's in the pictures on others' posts to test passenger reaction (some wanted to know why only the pilot got one, one guy ripped open the bag for the lifevest under his seat and put it on!). I also have carried a Mustang that's in a small pouch that is strapped around the waist - pull the tag to inflate and pull it over you head; it's meant to be easy to do in the water and is a birlliant comprimise to wearing a deflated horseshoe-type vest. None are TC aviation approved, only CCG approved for boating, but obviously we also carry the TC approved lifevests in the approved locations as per the aircrafts' safety briefing cards.

I would like to see TC make it manditory to wear an approved lifevest in seaplanes. The vests would obviously have to be more rugged than what is in the 'seatback in front of you' right now...such as a TC aviation approved Mustang type currently on the market.

angry inch · Post by **angry inch** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:53 pm

I think that passengers (& crew) wearing life vests similar to the inflatable mustangs is a good idea. Mandatory... not sure about that one. Hard to argue against it.

What do you do with those huge fat bastards who are 350lbs & above?? I mean c'mon... I don't know how many times I've been put on the spot trying to get an extension for someone, when there was already at least one other very large person using what was available. Do they even make PFD's that will float these people?? Otherwise, it's just going through the motions. I've had countless "BIG" people on board floatplanes that could hardy even get on board while we were on the ramp, or tied up to the dock. As much as I hate to say it, I think these guys are pretty Fk'd in a real egress situation & possibly reduce the chances for others on board!

Anyways, many factors to consider & there's no doubt that wearing one "before", is a lot easier than trying to put one on "after"...

I took Bryan's course recently & it was great. The simple fact that it opens up discussion, is a positive result in itself...

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:36 am

I haven't taken the course yet but plan to. Has anyone tried the egress with a constant float jacket on? I'd think it'd almost be safer to have it stored in the aircraft then on your body. If the aircraft ended up nose down, as soon as you undid the buckle, you'd have to fight to not end up in the cargo hold.

The inflatable ones worn on all flights is a great idea and making it mandatory would help ensure that us poor pilots don't have to foot the bill for our safety or have passengers without safety vests. As soon as you're out, pull the cord and shoot to the surface.

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:18 am

I agree that egress training is a good idea but the ability to take it to the next level - leaving the pool would be difficult -- I have never had the training but have not flown floats since passengers sat on their kit with no seat belts - I never worried much about myself since I was a certified diver but having seen the results of a flipped beaver where only the pilot escaped and his 6 passengers were all found in the aft of the airplane because it was nose down -- shows what panic and disorientation does. My comment about moving it to the lake would be strictly a liability, safety and controlled environment issue - just as when I was initially trained in scuba free accents from about 25 feet were taught the practice is no longer endorsed because of safety issues.

It all well and good for pilots to have the training for underwater egress but how do you train the passengers -- and by the time you are upside down only one ass is being worried about - oil companies(been done for years for the North Sea - but they are also required to wear exposure suits -- except for a short time in canada egress+exposure suit would have to go hand in hand to make it survivable ) -- maybe lumber companies could train their employees but for the tourist industry - commuters and such I doubt it.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:02 am

Some logging companies do have their constant-fly employees egress trained (my husband was a logger and being trained at Interfor expense). Obviously you can't get all passengers trained, but those who are transported to/from work over the water regularly should imho be trained just as the pilot - and this may be something I can help work toward ...

We are also working on a Floatplane Safety Video (well several, for differing audiences) which could be shown in the "lobby" before boarding pax ...

Don't forget that Bryan also wrote "Ditching Principles: A Survival Guide to Ditching an Aircraft", available on his website http://www.dunkyou.com.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:21 am

I gotta agree with liquid charlie.

If your work requires you to fly floats daily, then the company should step up and provide the training. I think you'd have to regulate that through the various work safety groups or something non-tc related.

As far as a passenger going through a video briefing before flying for 20 minutes across the straight, its not practical. It would be kind of like showing how to survive a lion attack before boarding a safari. There should be a basic briefing, similar to an airline's, describing how to maintain your spatial orientation, when to inflate the life jacket etc. but as for the video briefing, I don't think it'll fly. Many float plane bases don't have tv/video in a building and some don't have power, not to mention the panic it would cause nervous passengers prior to boarding.

Getting Bryan to come up with a standard 5 min. passenger briefing to be used by all float operators, would be a good idea.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:34 am

justplanecrazy wrote:Getting Bryan to come up with a standard 5 min. passenger briefing to be used by all float operators, would be a good idea.

We are working with a professional video production studio on this right now. The intent is to have a standard passenger brief, an "advanced" passenger brief, and a pilot directed video. The production studio involved is run by a commercial pilot who has worked for and with CASARA. We hope to eventually be able to offer the various packages with supportive educational material - which could be used for a non-video briefing. We hope to keep costs low, and to that end have found potential funding from "official" sources.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:07 am

Good luck, sounds like a worthy project.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:03 am

I've taken the course twice - first on my own nickel, and then on my employer's. Learned new things each time. Most of the old guys that I took it with the second time 'round were impressed, and wished that they'd had it 35 years ago when they'd started flying floats.
WRT passenger issues: whenever I fly on floats now, I make sure that I sit next to the door so that I'm sure that it will be opened in an emergency..

Swamp Donkey · Post by **Swamp Donkey** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:34 am

Took Bryan's course in 2002. A real eye opener.

The shock and disorientation was surprising, even with my scuba background. My passenger briefings weren't as short after that!

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:31 am

Swamp Donkey wrote:Took Bryan's course in 2002. A real eye opener.

The shock and disorientation was surprising, even with my scuba background. My passenger briefings weren't as short after that!

I suspected that would be an outcome.

angry inch · Post by **angry inch** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:41 am

It is a shame that Mr Webster is unable to offer the course involving the sliding unit on rails any longer. I believe insurance companies (surprise) have made it unreasonable to do so. (coverage cost, extra staff, etc..)

The mobile course is no doubt a good thing, however, I think a little more realism would be even more of an "eye opener"... such as splashing in on the "track machine"... Darkness & frigid waters might make it a bit much though.. hehe

Swamp donkey, which one did you take??

cheers

kingeddie · Post by **kingeddie** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:47 pm

Yes

Mandatory at my company bi annually we have had two accidents since we started and both pilots attribute their escape to the training .

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:01 pm

angry inch wrote:It is a shame that Mr Webster is unable to offer the course involving the sliding unit on rails any longer. I believe insurance companies (surprise) have made it unreasonable to do so. (coverage cost, extra staff, etc..)

The mobile course is no doubt a good thing, however, I think a little more realism would be even more of an "eye opener"... such as splashing in on the "track machine"... Darkness & frigid waters might make it a bit much though.. hehe

Swamp donkey, which one did you take??

cheers

I have done cliff diving in a glacier fed river while wearing a farmer john wet suit and splash jacket, and the shock of hitting the water was enough to suck the breath out of me to the point that I was not comfortable, and would have been even less so if I had not been wearing a life jacket. I was totally amazed at what the cold can do to you. I am a strong swimmer too!

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm

If I flew floats, and I don't, I'd invest in a "spare air" mini scuba tank. Smaller than a pony tank. Secure it to my person, and when/if "push came to shove", I'd take my time and have about 3-5 minutes to vacate the situation. You can get one at any good dive supply outlet. Not much larger than a Ray Ban case. This would remove the "panic" of the situation, and would allow me time to make sure everybody gets out. If I can unbuckle a seat belt, I can deploy a spare air tank.
I don't need to fake it in a pool. I have a plan.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:44 pm

If it is even marginally cold water, you might want to fly wearing a survival suit too.

Have you taken an underwater egress course?

Have you taken an underwater egress course?

Underwater Egress Course

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