PPC vs Hour Building
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donnybrook
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PPC vs Hour Building
I constantly read about how bad it is to buy yourself a PPC in order to get a job. But with all of the recent threads about buying an airplane to build hundreds of hours, I have to ask...what is the difference between the two? As a casual observer, in both cases, it could be looked upon as someone buying a job...
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Cat Driver
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EXCELLENT POINT! When you buy an airplane to LOG PIC time isn't that buying a job, I think it is. Why would anyone buy an airplane to fly the crap out of it just so they can put in the time and this the same thing as buying a PPC. Yeah, you will enjoy your airplane whenever you want it, fly it where ever you like but the main purpose that it was bought was to put in the time to get a job.
Just my two cents, and some of you I know won't like the above comments. And I do not want to buy a PPC because I agree with you guys, it should be part of the training from the company that hires you but we have enough pilots in this country that will stab each other to death just to get a job.
Just my two cents, and some of you I know won't like the above comments. And I do not want to buy a PPC because I agree with you guys, it should be part of the training from the company that hires you but we have enough pilots in this country that will stab each other to death just to get a job.
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Cat Driver
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Here, let me help you work this one out.
Low time pilot with PPC...equals low time pilot with PPC.
Low time pilot with his / her own bugsmasher has the chance to become a higher time pilot flying at lower cost per hour.
Once you have enough hours logged you sell your bug smasher.
Unfortunately aviation has always been of the opinion that it is how many hours you have that determines your value....even though this is B.S.
Cat
Low time pilot with PPC...equals low time pilot with PPC.
Low time pilot with his / her own bugsmasher has the chance to become a higher time pilot flying at lower cost per hour.
Once you have enough hours logged you sell your bug smasher.
Unfortunately aviation has always been of the opinion that it is how many hours you have that determines your value....even though this is B.S.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
The whole buying a ppc deal is just selling yourself out. But buying the a/c is an investment in your future. Even though you'll most likely lose out on a bit of $, it'll pay off way better than the ppc path. I have a couple valid ppc's (not bought) but still no pic.......that c150 looks pretty good
"donny" and "helinas"...You're missing the point regarding buying PPC's!
It's easy to do the math and then ask: why spend $10,000 to fly around in a C-150 for a year when you can spend that same $10,000 buy a real PPC.
But it's not as simple as that. As "raven" said, buying a PPC IS selling yourself out! (and most of the time it won't get you anywhere!)
If I'm looking for a Navajo co-pilot and you come to me for an interview with 239 hours, Multi/IFR, and a Navajo PPC...I will boot you out the door and shred your resume!
On the other hand, if you come to me with 539 hours and a long story about busting the bank to buy a C-150...flying for 300 hours all over Canada and the U.S...going broke keeping your bird in the air...I would hire you on the spot!!! Without hesitation!!
Quite simple!!
G
It's easy to do the math and then ask: why spend $10,000 to fly around in a C-150 for a year when you can spend that same $10,000 buy a real PPC.
But it's not as simple as that. As "raven" said, buying a PPC IS selling yourself out! (and most of the time it won't get you anywhere!)
If I'm looking for a Navajo co-pilot and you come to me for an interview with 239 hours, Multi/IFR, and a Navajo PPC...I will boot you out the door and shred your resume!
On the other hand, if you come to me with 539 hours and a long story about busting the bank to buy a C-150...flying for 300 hours all over Canada and the U.S...going broke keeping your bird in the air...I would hire you on the spot!!! Without hesitation!!
Quite simple!!
G
I think the best part about owning a plane would be the understanding of the financials involved in operating an aircraft when it comes to interview time. It always impresses me when we have a job candidate come in (and the boss says the same) that understands what is financially involved to make an airplane fly.
OK guys, I also agree with not buying a PPC (job) these companies use them because they know you are desperate. How about this then, I currently have about 450 hours total time which includes 92 on floats and 77 on twins and still looking for a job. I have 15 years working on the ramp for Canada's flagship carrier and in the late 80's I was a co-owner of a Piper Navajo operation and knows what it takes to run an airplane. I remember typing that operations manual which took about 7 months to obtain from Transport Canada. So, I have bush pilot experience up north with an operator, I have 15 years ramp experience which includes de-icing, towing, loading and unloading aircraft ranging from Beech 1900 to 747 and used to co-own a Navajo operation and I know what it takes to run a cargo run and this airplane.
Do you think anybody out there will give me a CHANCE to prove myself by giving me a flight position, WOULD YOU ? I have alot to offer and really frustrating not getting my foot in any type of door. And by the way, I am 38 years of age. I know, GOOD LUCK to me.
Do you think anybody out there will give me a CHANCE to prove myself by giving me a flight position, WOULD YOU ? I have alot to offer and really frustrating not getting my foot in any type of door. And by the way, I am 38 years of age. I know, GOOD LUCK to me.
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donnybrook
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Just so it's clear, I definitely do not support buying a PPC. This is just for discussion purposes, but what is the difference between these examples:
1) buying a plane to build hours to meet a company's 500 hour requirement, and going broke in the process.
2) buying a PPC to meet a company's requirement, and going broke in the process.
Either way you are buying "experience". I think the biggest gripe people have is that the purchase of a PPC makes it financially prohibitive to get your foot in the door, and you shouldn't have to keep mortgaging your future. What about the 200 hour pilot who simply cannot afford to buy a plane? Perhaps the CPs should only hire people with the basic licence and ratings. That will create a level playing field where no pilot will feel compelled to spend their life savings to get a job...
1) buying a plane to build hours to meet a company's 500 hour requirement, and going broke in the process.
2) buying a PPC to meet a company's requirement, and going broke in the process.
Either way you are buying "experience". I think the biggest gripe people have is that the purchase of a PPC makes it financially prohibitive to get your foot in the door, and you shouldn't have to keep mortgaging your future. What about the 200 hour pilot who simply cannot afford to buy a plane? Perhaps the CPs should only hire people with the basic licence and ratings. That will create a level playing field where no pilot will feel compelled to spend their life savings to get a job...
Please forgive me if I say something stupid, I only have 200 hrs... 
BUT, IMHO buying a PPC will give you only a few hours of "experience" in a particular airplane. Buying a plane will give you a lot of experience maintaining (meaning REALLY TAKING CARE OF) a plane... plus the fact that you will be improving your skills (and having fun at the same time).
It might be my lack of experience in this field, but to me.. .they are totally different...
BUT, IMHO buying a PPC will give you only a few hours of "experience" in a particular airplane. Buying a plane will give you a lot of experience maintaining (meaning REALLY TAKING CARE OF) a plane... plus the fact that you will be improving your skills (and having fun at the same time).
It might be my lack of experience in this field, but to me.. .they are totally different...
Last edited by TI-ANB on Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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Helinas :
To answer your question.
Yes, I would hire you based on what you posted.
Unfortunately I don't have a job myself right now.
Cat
To answer your question.
Yes, I would hire you based on what you posted.
Unfortunately I don't have a job myself right now.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Donnybrook:
I'm not saying everyone can do it (buy a plane, that is) but I think there are quite a few out there who are only held back by THINKING they can't. A few months back, buying a plane seemed out reach for me, but now I own one. It was a question of going in on it with another person (my brother, in this case) and spending enough time doing the research to find a way to do it in such a way that I could afford it. Sometimes you have to make choices about what you would rather have. I know a guy who wants to buy an aircraft, but has spent his money on a truck instead that's probably worth two Cherokees. You should see the beast I drive, but that's the choice I made. Plane or nice car? There are some other things you might have to give up, but what are your priorities?
Anyway, the best way to afford to buy and run an aircraft is to get a few friends in on the purchase and upkeep. Even better if one of them is an AME.
TI-ANB, I agree with you completely. And don't let your lack of experience stop you from saying what you think here. It hasn't stopped me.
I'm not saying everyone can do it (buy a plane, that is) but I think there are quite a few out there who are only held back by THINKING they can't. A few months back, buying a plane seemed out reach for me, but now I own one. It was a question of going in on it with another person (my brother, in this case) and spending enough time doing the research to find a way to do it in such a way that I could afford it. Sometimes you have to make choices about what you would rather have. I know a guy who wants to buy an aircraft, but has spent his money on a truck instead that's probably worth two Cherokees. You should see the beast I drive, but that's the choice I made. Plane or nice car? There are some other things you might have to give up, but what are your priorities?
Anyway, the best way to afford to buy and run an aircraft is to get a few friends in on the purchase and upkeep. Even better if one of them is an AME.
TI-ANB, I agree with you completely. And don't let your lack of experience stop you from saying what you think here. It hasn't stopped me.
Understanding begets harmony; in seeking the first you will find the last.
Just cleaning the cat hailr off myself after falling down on the floor laughing myself half to death...bloody cats! Did I read this right? Did somebody refer to 450 TT and 92 float as "bush experience"?
If somebody came into the office WITH a PPC from, say, Bearskin, a few hundred hours on the PPC'd type, and we were looking for a captain, his resume would, obviously be near the top of the pile. It's not the PPC, but the whole package. The guy(and when I use the word "guy" it's a non gender "guy")knows the area. He's been there. And I know that the Bearskin guys have been trained more or less, the way we do.
Now if a guy with a couple of hundred hours, and a PPC, comes in, we ask about time on type? Ten you say? Where did you get the PPC? Bought it, you say? Dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!
Helinas...just dont refer to your float time as "bush experience" and you should do fine...but it sure made my morning...almost spilled my coffee! Now, I'm going to vacuum that bloody cat!
If somebody came into the office WITH a PPC from, say, Bearskin, a few hundred hours on the PPC'd type, and we were looking for a captain, his resume would, obviously be near the top of the pile. It's not the PPC, but the whole package. The guy(and when I use the word "guy" it's a non gender "guy")knows the area. He's been there. And I know that the Bearskin guys have been trained more or less, the way we do.
Now if a guy with a couple of hundred hours, and a PPC, comes in, we ask about time on type? Ten you say? Where did you get the PPC? Bought it, you say? Dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!
Helinas...just dont refer to your float time as "bush experience" and you should do fine...but it sure made my morning...almost spilled my coffee! Now, I'm going to vacuum that bloody cat!
Ya go out and get a PPC on a HOE oopps soory we're hiring for the van right now, got another ten G's sittin around. PPC's are company training that they are responsible to make sure you have, you should not have to do this yourself. Having x amount of hours shows you have experince and hopefully the skill to match, though not necisarily some 500 hour guys are better pilots than some 2000 hour guys knowing the difference is up to who hires and trains you. Having "REAL PIC" not flying around in circles ten miles north of the field in cavok is something that could help them make that decision.
One thing I've always wondered is do these PPCed guys going to new companies go straight online wouldn't they have to do company training and ride anyways, just make the ride a PPC. Unless you are looking for FS or something and then would you want somebody who jumps ship like that I would have a hard time trusting them with anything to do with the bussiness, unless of course they had stayed for a resonible amount of time and were looking for some other reason.
One thing I've always wondered is do these PPCed guys going to new companies go straight online wouldn't they have to do company training and ride anyways, just make the ride a PPC. Unless you are looking for FS or something and then would you want somebody who jumps ship like that I would have a hard time trusting them with anything to do with the bussiness, unless of course they had stayed for a resonible amount of time and were looking for some other reason.
Easy there DOC, I guess when I mentioned my 'float time' I shouldn't have used bush experience but I sure got a very good taste of it. I had a brief (3 month) experience working up north for a float operator where I shared the duties with the chief pilot flying a 185. I did everything from repairing docks, prepared for the bear hunt, patched up boat hull holes, cleaned hangars, busted up frozen meat for the potential bears, fueled the aircraft, loaded the aircraft and a few other daily jobs that your average Central Ontario float pilot would do. Yeah I don't have thousands of float hours but after putting in 14 hour days 6 days a week and trying to become a better pilot I did what I had to do and didn't complain about it. So take it easy there DOC and don,t sue me because I made you spill your coffee, I hope I didn't burn you.
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Right Seat Captain
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Nothing ever beats experience.
That being said, I wouldn't think it very practical to buy an aircraft and fly 1000 hours on it. I think it would be more valid to build hours while building operational experience. MEANING, get down in the trenches with the rest of us, and get a job as an instructor or bush flying in small a/c, where PPCs are not required. Build your hours, and getpaid to do it, silly.
That being said, I wouldn't think it very practical to buy an aircraft and fly 1000 hours on it. I think it would be more valid to build hours while building operational experience. MEANING, get down in the trenches with the rest of us, and get a job as an instructor or bush flying in small a/c, where PPCs are not required. Build your hours, and getpaid to do it, silly.
Having a PPC does not mean that you have experience.
The only reason companies want the PPC is because it saves them the training cash - it has nothing to do with the quality of the applicant.
A 250 hour pilot with a PPC on a HO doesn't have experience. A 2,500 hour pilot with no PPC does. I bet if you studied how much an inexperienced pilot with a PPC costs a company overall (in training, lost efficiencies, etc.) that in the end the experienced pilot would cost less.
The only reason companies want the PPC is because it saves them the training cash - it has nothing to do with the quality of the applicant.
A 250 hour pilot with a PPC on a HO doesn't have experience. A 2,500 hour pilot with no PPC does. I bet if you studied how much an inexperienced pilot with a PPC costs a company overall (in training, lost efficiencies, etc.) that in the end the experienced pilot would cost less.
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just another pilot
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Right Seat Captain
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BINGO!Having a PPC does not mean that you have experience.
Anyways I came up with an idea. What do people think about TC coming out with a regulation requiring companies to PPC their own pilots, regardless of if the pilots were recently PPCed at another company? Not only would that be good for the industry, it would make more paperwork for TC, and they seem to like that kind of stuff.
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scubasteve
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Right Seat Captain...I agree with you that its better to be working as an instructor or in the bush but the whole issue here is putting yourself in a position to get that first job. Ideally 250hrs will get you a job but thats not realistic. What buying a plane (or a PPC grrrrr) does is set you apart from the other 3000 guys applying for the same jobs.
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Right Seat Captain
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No comapny will hire you at 250 hrs with a PPC anyway. Your best bet is an instructing job, or a bush gig. People here talk about getting their PPC with grand hopes of flying jobs as soon as they are done their commercial. When it comes down to it, what's the use? Even with the job postings requiring a PPC, how many have you seen asking for 250 hrs? Why buy an aircraft at 250 hrs to build time to 1000 hrs, when there are FTUs hiring, and Bush operations hiring.
And for people who asked in another thread where these operations that are hiring are located, go find them yourself. Too many people sit at home sending out billions of resumes. I think most CPs would agree it is obvious when the applicant has little interest in your particular company. Walk in the door, and have a chat, and you might find jobs that aren't being advertised.
And for people who asked in another thread where these operations that are hiring are located, go find them yourself. Too many people sit at home sending out billions of resumes. I think most CPs would agree it is obvious when the applicant has little interest in your particular company. Walk in the door, and have a chat, and you might find jobs that aren't being advertised.
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donnybrook
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RSC,
I think you got my initial point. It seems to me that either way you are buying yourself into a job. If a guy showed up for a King Air job with 2500 hours on type, would you hire him if he told you it was all on his personal aircraft, flying his buddies around Canada and the US? What kind of bad habits would you have to beat out of him when you brought him on line? Wouldn't you feel bad about the kid who has been mowing your lawn for the last 2 years, and has taken out your butt-ugly daughter a couple of times to build up her self esteem? Call it what you will, but if you want to stop draining money from pilots' pockets you have to draw the line...
I think you got my initial point. It seems to me that either way you are buying yourself into a job. If a guy showed up for a King Air job with 2500 hours on type, would you hire him if he told you it was all on his personal aircraft, flying his buddies around Canada and the US? What kind of bad habits would you have to beat out of him when you brought him on line? Wouldn't you feel bad about the kid who has been mowing your lawn for the last 2 years, and has taken out your butt-ugly daughter a couple of times to build up her self esteem? Call it what you will, but if you want to stop draining money from pilots' pockets you have to draw the line...
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scubasteve
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For me, part of the reason I got into this industry is because I love to fly. I love the idea of the $100 burger or pancakes. I also have some hippy blood and Jack Kerouac wandering spirit so the idea of buying a plane and flying it around the continent with a tent in the back is appealing. Yes it gives you more hours to help with a job but it also about enjoying the industry you're in. A PPC is all about getting a job. There's nothing enjoyable about it if you ask me.
