Aircraft Critical Surface Contamination

[Doc]

bobcaygeon.....I have a particular bur in my butt over the ice issue. Why? Because it is the simplest thing just to make sure you have a clean aircraft before you depart. No exam necessary. Clean it, or don't go. This simple fact is ignored by pilots who should know better every winter. TC gives us exams to justify their employment and kill trees. I'm not against every exam...but I am against this one....it is not working.
Pilots write exams on their aircraft. They still depart over weight. They still run out of gas.
Pilots write instrument exams and, take check rides. They still descend below limits and die.
Now, to answer your question. He got fined because he didn't secure his load. A better question would be...WTF was he doing flying a Navajo?
Oh, and yes, I have dipped into my bag of luck on a couple of occasions. That's one reason Cat and I rag on about this crap. We don't want you to have to dig into your bag of luck.
Read my post on "accidents". Everything you really need to know to stay safe is right there.

[trey kule]

Thought i posted on theis forum.

The last winter i was in Canada I saw crews come in that had no idea of the types or colors of fluids, temperature, and it importance, dilution, or methods of applying. some operators even sent their planes up north with a little garden spray bottle full of ambient temp (typically -25) alcohol of some type or other (methonol or isopropyl.)
I am quite certain that every one of these pilots took the exam and passed.

So there are two issues we can learn from here.

The first is , as doc says, if it aint clean...dont go...(my apologies for the paraphrasing).
common sense...And if it needs cleaning...
Well, you had really better know how. Dont spout off about the hold time limitations and then put on cold fluid...
so, the second is that companies really should be doing proper training so that pilots understand , not just pass exams, and then, where they are supplying aircraft carried equipment, make sure the crews really now what they are doing....another management issue that is being avoided by "exams'
Lastly, Rockie, exams are tests...I think your statment that they are learning aids is a bit to broad, but it seems to be the way things are now...demonstrate and test...dont worry about actual learning.
The last winter I was in Canada I was appalled at the real lack of knowledge of the flight crews doing charter work in the north. Read Para1 above, and if you dont know all the answers it is time to go back for a little refresher.

[Rockie]

The de-icing program here in Canada has its roots in very hard lessons like many other things in aviation. Doc, Cat, the fact you knew the Dryden pilot is totally irrelevant and doesn't justify your condescending attitude. This program consists of basically two things, education of which testing is part of, and procedures. Procedures are to keep the cowboys who share your disdain for education but maybe aren't quite as smart, from killing airplanes full of people. The education is not surprisingly to teach people and raise awareness.

You talk about this exam like it is the de-ice program and you come across as cranky old fossils who think people should just know better. Well, what do you think this exam is supposed to do? For one, it documents that at least at one time the licence holder knew what he was supposed to know. That is one of TC's mandates in protecting the travelling public. You might lump it in with all the other stupid stuff they do but in this case it is appropriate since it is part of the education process. You of all people Cat should appreciate the importance of education, and you do neither yourself or the people on this forum who look up to you a favour by sneering at it. I'm not interested in your "been there done that my penis is bigger than yours" bullshit. You're sending the wrong message on this to the less experienced people here who think everything you say is gospel.

Doc, I'm well aware of your opinions on pilot error. I agree with you that we are ultimately responsible and have preached the same thing throughout my career. But there is something called "human factors" that contribute to pilot error that the majority of the flight safety effort for decades has been devoted to improving. When you sit on your podium yelling "pilot error" without addressing human factors you are no better than the press. This exam is one small part of the equation to address those human factors and it has value. We are better at winter ops than we were before, you only have to go to other countries to see how advanced our procedures and awareness are in Canada. As a last point, I give you credit for being around since the dawn of time, in fact I hold you to a higher standard than most because of it. But don't talk down to me. Same goes for Cat. You guys don't own all the experience or capability.

[Doc]

Trey kule, we pretty much (at least I do) stop packing the "garden" sprayers if the temps are much lower than -10. They do a good job with a bit of freezing drizzle, but beyond that, pretty useless. If we do get a little surface contamination, I've been know (when there is no other choice) to mix some windshield anti-freeze with hot water, toss it on the wings and tail, wipe it off, and the go. Works like a charm! The stuff in the garden sprayers, mixed with hot water works even better. Knowing ice fluid types is all well and good, if there are any. But, I'm happy with whatever gives me a clean wing.

Rockie, glad to know you think we're all morons. Most of what we take exams for is political. What we really need is more common sense, not more exams. Now, have a happy new year, and keep your wings clean!

[Rockie]

Rockie, glad to know you think we're all morons.

Read my last post again Doc, carefully this time. Show me where I suggest you are all morons.

[Doc]

Same place Cat and I stated we're against education! Ya gots to read between the lines there, sport.

[Rockie]

So you're for education, but against validating that education or any confirmation that you know what you're supposed to know. Is that right?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Rockie, I am not the fuc.in Ann Landers of aviation and I do not want to be, sure there are a lot of kids who read this stuff and may be swayed by what I post.

On this subject my opinion remains exactly as stated...writing a fifty question exam made up by who knows who in some secure warm cubicle does not mean that the pilot really understands the subject deep enough to make safe decisions in the field when they first start flying........

.......the system is failing new pilots because the training programs in far to many FTU's are nothing short of fast track to the lowest common denominator taught by students to students....

......that part can be improved upon in the field if the ops managers and chief pilots carry out their duties....( To ensure the safety of flight operations and compliance to the regulations..)

My position is this is not happening in far to many cases....

Supported by this from Trey Kule:

The last winter i was in Canada I saw crews come in that had no idea of the types or colors of fluids, temperature, and it importance, dilution, or methods of applying. some operators even sent their planes up north with a little garden spray bottle full of ambient temp (typically -25) alcohol of some type or other (methonol or isopropyl.)
I am quite certain that every one of these pilots took the exam and passed.

So there are two issues we can learn from here.

The first is , as doc says, if it aint clean...dont go...(my apologies for the paraphrasing).
common sense...And if it needs cleaning...
Well, you had really better know how. Dont spout off about the hold time limitations and then put on cold fluid...
so, the second is that companies really should be doing proper training so that pilots understand , not just pass exams, and then, where they are supplying aircraft carried equipment, make sure the crews really now what they are doing....another management issue that is being avoided by "exams'
Lastly, Rockie, exams are tests...I think your statment that they are learning aids is a bit to broad, but it seems to be the way things are now...demonstrate and test...dont worry about actual learning.
The last winter I was in Canada I was appalled at the real lack of knowledge of the flight crews doing charter work in the north. Read Para1 above, and if you dont know all the answers it is time to go back for a little refresher.

As to this:::

I'm not interested in your "been there done that my penis is bigger than yours" bullshit.

If there are some females reading this who are interested in the size of my penis they will have no problem finding me as I use my own name and frequently post my phone number.

For flight training I charge a fairly high rate, but if there are females who would like a test run for the size of my penis I'm willing to do that with no charge.

[Doc]

I'll try to keep this simple. Writing a 50 question exam on the subject of ice, has had little or no affect on our operational safety. I've cited examples of ice related accidents (fatal) where the crews involved had written this particular exam, but still chose to proceed with the flight. Nowhere have I "dumped" on any other exams or education. Just the ice exam. Most of the "crews" writing this exam have no basic working (practical) knowledge of ice, or ice removal. They just think they do, because they wrote an exam. That's what we "cranky fossils" call "book learning" and it's pretty much useless, without a little common sense to go along with it. Hope this clears it up for you?

[Big Blue Sky]

Ok kids.... throw away all your books. Don't bother increasing your topical knowledge any longer. Awareness is just a waste of time. ---You are just wasting your time and money.---

. and Doc are now going to let you know when you should know something. They are the best pilots that ever wore epaullets. They know everything. Just drink their koolaid when they say you can. Bow down to their authority.

Gag Me.

[Rockie]

There you go talking down to me again Doc. The 50 question exam is a TC requirement as is the training. As Cat correctly states it is the operators responsibility to provide that training, but if they don't that doesn't excuse the individual from knowing what he is supposed to know. Another thread here has a few links to readily available material and there is lots more that can be had. If an individual states to TC through this exam that they know what they are supposed to know but really hasn't paid attention, then I'd say they aren't being very professional about it which is their fault, not Transport Canada's or the exam's. I don't see why you are heaping all the failures on this exam when it is a very small part of the whole equation.

If you were in charge at Transport Canada how would you ensure individual pilots were properly qualified?

[Doc]

Big Blue Sky. What does a 50 question exam have to do with "situational awareness"? Looking forward to your next words of wisdom.
BTW, who wears "epaullets"? Are you a student at MFC? If so, you're flunking your ESL course.

But I digress. Of course a 50 question exam on ice will make you a far better pilot than I. So, why are we still having accidents? Accidents involving ice. You've all written the test. Well? I mean, if you're all so friggen smart from writing all them there fancy exams? Of course, you'll never learn anything unless it comes from some desk in Ottawa. Because all wisdom comes from there. Nothing to learn here folks, just move along.

But, my coffee cup is empty. The coffee pot calls. I must answer.....

[Liquid Charlie]

Damn -- it's scary to realize that I have likely crossed paths with cat and doc in the past -- - damn -- the chinese air force - did my initial IFR there -- and crazy Ivan -- sheesh -- the guy we joked needed curb feelers on the wing tips to go in Pang -- and George chked me out on a CV44 back in the day - a true gentleman -- left a G2 job so he could have a better family life - anyone on the inside knows there was far more to play in Dryden than that is common knowledge - so u two grumpy old c%nts stop flogging these fresh young studs -- we all know there is more to critical surfaces than wings and tail -- but will a guy coming off a light airplane necessarily know that.

Damn this is a small industry --

PS -- sitting at the wpg airport -- bootlegging internet off air canada -- reading av canada -- what a way to pass the time --

[Rockie]

Big Blue Sky. What does a 50 question exam have to do with "situational awareness"? Looking forward to your next words of wisdom.
BTW, who wears "epaullets"? Are you a student at MFC? If so, you're flunking your ESL course.

But I digress. Of course a 50 question exam on ice will make you a far better pilot than I. So, why are we still having accidents? Accidents involving ice. You've all written the test. Well? I mean, if you're all so friggen smart from writing all them there fancy exams? Of course, you'll never learn anything unless it comes from some desk in Ottawa. Because all wisdom comes from there. Nothing to learn here folks, just move along.

But, my coffee cup is empty. The coffee pot calls. I must answer.....

Calm down Doc, no one's threatening your position atop the pilot gene pool. Since most (not all) of us don't have your experience how would you suggest we attain the knowledge that you have if not through training and testing? We don't all start out with 100 years of flying experience.

[Doc]

Scary thought indeed.......send me a PM, and we'll get exchange some info.

We sometimes get into these little "talks" in the hope some wisdom might rub off. It goes both ways. Cheers.

[Doc]

Geeeze Rockie, how old do you think I am? If we keep badgering each other, we may just get some poor pilot to think twice before he flogs off with ice on his wings........stuff like this "sinks in" more than most exams. That's why we insert the odd "tidbit" of information into our posts. Like the hot water/windshield thing....might get you home some night instead of spending a weekend in YPM. As I stated before, I'm NOT against all exams. You have to be tested somehow. But I think that either this one doesn't work.....or.....it doesn't go deep enough? The exam alone isn't cutting it.
Write all the exams you want. Take all the courses you can. All good. All useful. Education is a good thing. So, though is practical experience. Don't always dump on some "old ways" of doing things. Some work. The ones that don't work, we have already learned about, and will never suggest them. Like sticking a herman nelson hose under a wing cover to deice the wing. Nothing works better, or faster. But, who would even think of it? A fossil Why? Because we're lazy. Therefore we find the "easy" way of doing things....and they work. An exam, in and of itself is just paper. A way to kill trees and keep some TC guy in Ottawa employed. In the end, all that really matters is, that you stay safe. End of rant.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Cheer up Doc, Rocky has introduced the dick size issue into this discussion and I jumped right on it......just waiting to see how many new female students I get with my offer of a free size demonstration......

[Rockie]

Geeeze Rockie, how old do you think I am? If we keep badgering each other, we may just get some poor pilot to think twice before he flogs off with ice on his wings........stuff like this "sinks in" more than most exams. That's why we insert the odd "tidbit" of information into our posts. Like the hot water/windshield thing....might get you home some night instead of spending a weekend in YPM. As I stated before, I'm NOT against all exams. You have to be tested somehow. But I think that either this one doesn't work.....or.....it doesn't go deep enough? The exam alone isn't cutting it.
Write all the exams you want. Take all the courses you can. All good. All useful. Education is a good thing. So, though is practical experience. Don't always dump on some "old ways" of doing things. Some work. The ones that don't work, we have already learned about, and will never suggest them. Like sticking a herman nelson hose under a wing cover to deice the wing. Nothing works better, or faster. But, who would even think of it? A fossil Why? Because we're lazy. Therefore we find the "easy" way of doing things....and they work. An exam, in and of itself is just paper. A way to kill trees and keep some TC guy in Ottawa employed. In the end, all that really matters is, that you stay safe. End of rant.

Couldn't agree with you more on this one. And here's a contributing factor that I'm sure you and Cat will stand up and cheer about. Transport Canada is rapidly getting out of the oversight business and leaving it up to the operators themselves which is a massive mistake in my opinion. They weren't very good at oversight to begin with, but outright abdication is a recipe for disaster of the type we are discussing here. The onus has never been more on the individual pilot to ensure they have the right tools and knowledge to do their jobs.

[Big Blue Sky]

BTW, who wears "epaullets"?

...Surely you remember the 3 bar epaulets you were wearing when I beat the crap out of you with the pogo stick?

[Spokes]

There was a Caravan out here on the west coast that augered in with ten people on board just a few weeks ago.....everything points to ice.....matters not where or how it gets on the wings the results are the same.

I'm confused here. Are you saying the answer to this problem is less training and less checking to make sure pilots are aware of the dangers and what/how to mitigate/eliminate them are?

Someone here mentioned "well i'f there is ice get rid of it, and that is all there is too it". I'm paraphrasing a bit, but the was the gist of it. Some questions (of the top of my head) a reletively in-experienced pilot might have:

What kinds of deicing fluids are there?
Where and when is each appropriate?
Does it matter?
After de-icing when it is snowing, how long do I have to get airborne untill it is no longer effective?
Where can I find this information?
Just wings and Horizontal stab? Vertical stab? Fuselage?
Any place where i should not spray?
What is cold soaking?

All the answers to these questions are likely obvious to someone who has seen alot of winters, but maybe not so much to someone with very little experience. Ground training, Practical experience and testing are how people learn things. Annual refresher training? I do not recall a start of a winter season in 23 years in the airforce where we did not get this. We didn't have a 50 question exam, but there were always some questions on it in the annual exams we wrote. I'd hate to think of someone who learned to do something wrong, from maybe a relativley inexperience Instructor, who's life could have been saved if only they knew better. maybe they heard some highly experienced pilot scoffing at this type of training/exams and payed little attention to it. Training and testing works (should work?) to this end.

I have little doubt that someone flying since the 50's will gain little from this, but someone flying since '05? couldn't hurt.

Just my $.02

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I'm confused here. Are you saying the answer to this problem is less training and less checking to make sure pilots are aware of the dangers and what/how to mitigate/eliminate them are?

No.

Both Doc and I are trying to reinforce the simple fact that there is far more to the learning process than some fifty question exam designed to cover TC's ass.

Try reading what I post........

To reiterate some of the more important points.

Many new pilots enter the commercial flying world equipped only with the exams and flight training the training industry provides.

In many cases they were taught by instructors who were students a few months ago.

When they get their first job they quite often end up working for companies who intimidate them into flying in disregard for the regulations and way beyond their experience level.

The blame in my mind then lies with the operations managers and chief pilots of these companies.

That is my position on this, however in that I no longer am involved in commercial aviation in Canada maybe my opinions are from the stone age and I am wrong about the whole subject.

Maybe I would be far better off to just say fu.k it and let those who are up to speed with modern aircraft and training methods steer the kids down a safe path.

It has been a long time since I flew airplanes for a living and the machines I flew were not modern and my last training was done by people who were out of touch with the new age of aviation.

[CID]

If pilots are so fu.kin stupid they need special training to understand something as basic as wing contamination they shouldn't be flying.

This is one of the most moronic things ever stated on this forum. It suggests that pilots magically learn about the effects of ice on critical surfaces without training.

The country is littered with tons of scrap metal that fell out of the sky while riding on "common sense" of ignorant pilots.

Any initiative that supports training in such subjects should be supported. It's too bad that Doc and Cat are surrounded by such massive egos that logic can't even penetrate.

[foxmoth]

It is really funny to read some of the contrdictory comments here when people get riled.
Evrybody shud agree that training and examination is a nesessary part of learning. However, I have seen university grads who lucked out on finals and could not tie their own shoelaces, profesionally.

After Dryden, a grizzled old TC veteran swore a blu streak about TC gut reaction. "When in Doubt" was a TC ass-covering event (I payed taxes for that). His point was, that the current regulations alrady covered ice contamination.

I think Doc and Cat are merly pointing out that the exam covers 'compliance" with the CARs, but does not Prove knowlege.

I wud comment everyone to look under NASA and seek out there ice training information. If you cum away from that thinking you can fly with ice on your wings, then you trully are an idiot.

Tks for listening.

[imfsub12]

CAN I SAY HIJACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CD]

Yes does anyone know where to get the references for the Aircraft Critical Surface Contamination TP 10615E exam??? the one with 50 Questions?

According to the TC website, TP10615 has been replaced by the following document:

TP 10643 When in Doubt... Small and Large Aircraft - Print on Demand

Aircraft critical surface contamination training for aircrew and groundcrew. Formerly specific to aircrew, this updated manual now includes training for groundcrew and sample examination questions, and replaces TP 10647 and TP 10615.