Aircraft Critical Surface Contamination

[angry inch]

The NASA online tutorial is great. It can take up to six hours to complete if you use all the interactive bits. It has video's & pics of what different icing scenarios look like, as well as including stories of crashes & interiews with aircrews that shared their "experiences" on camera... In my opinion, this should be replacing the outdated "When In Doubt" series.

For those who think the 50 Q test is bullshit.. (not saying I don't..) & have the experience, why not just post some things you have learned/experienced to pass on?? I would, but the most icing I've encountered was when my girl jumped out of a cake... All I knew was to de-ice the critical surfaces

[Liquid Charlie]

OK -- here is one -- C-402C -- drove through a bunch of ice and as expected it quit flying in the flare at about 110 kts -- with the typical jerk of the control wheel -- one the ground the ice was removed and aircraft inspected for ice -- non seen. On the t/o the wheel gave a jerk but flew out of it -- needless to say it opened my eyes wide. Next stop -- same thing -- plane quit flying early - so this time I got on my hands and knees -- and crawled around -- what I found was a bead of ice at the trailing edge of the boot underneath the wing between the engine and the fuselage -- it was barely detectable and ran the length of the boot(between engine and uselage) it was the ridge about 1/8 of an inch once removed -- no more problems -- never figured so little ice would have such an impact on performance -- so ya -- it's the subtle things that will get you --

[Doc]

Okay, here's another. Went to Hearst to pick up a Dak and fly it back to Kap. Gee, I guess that was all of what? 90 miles? The Racer had her wing covers on, although it was mild. Just below freezing. We peeled off the covers to find very smooth ice blotches on the wings. Both wings. Looked a little like hoar (I love that word) frost, but smoother. Well, it was smooth, and it was under the covers, right? I mean, how bad could it be? Let me tell you....it was really nasty. After take off, it had me dancing on the peddles to keep the beast in the air. The wings were taking turns, trying to stall! The whole airframe shook like a dog in the rain. We came around to land with pretty much METO power on the poor puppy....and went for breakfast......so, yes I DO know exactly how much ice a DC3 will fly with!

[Cat Driver]

We landed in Great Whale River one night and unloaded stuff and some natives and fueled up.

during the fueling a light coating of "whore" frost started to form on the wings.

Anyhow to make this short we ran our c,,t hooks over the wing and decided it was just to light and not enough to worry about so we fired the thing up ( DC3 ) and away we went.

I'll never forger the ride we went for as soon as we were out of ground effect....it was only because we were empty and lucky I am writing this......

[ei ei owe]

CD, this was a perfect thread until you ruined it by actually posting what was originally asked.

The fact "older" lived through some experiences doesn't give the right to scoff at new ways of bringing material to pilots. Maybe the tests aren't ideal but the material should be the same. A perfect test or instructor still won't stop ice related fatalities. Neither will perfect operators. Some just don't care and choose to risk it. That's their natural instinct. For me, I'm more cautious than those I'm talking about but yet not as much as others that I work with. Will I auger into the ground because of this discrepancy? I doubt it. I do know (I think I do) my limits. That's what should be taught. Take someone on an underpowered piston and show what happens to its (already meagre) performance after a coating with ice. Real life examples. Not real life "stories" although I do find some of them good.

., the thought of you showing your weiner for free is giving me the heaves.

[Siddley Hawker]

I was co-pilot on the F-27 at the time. We had light snow, maybe a mile and a half viz with no wind and an OAT of -3 as I recall. (It was 35 years ago). I asked the Captain if we needed a wash and he said no, the airplane had just come in off a flight and it was cold. While we taxiied out, near as I can tell the heat from the tailpipes must have melted the crap on the tailplane. It was my leg and I noticed on rotation that the airplane wanted to pitch up right smartly. When we got airborne, I had to apply full nose down trim and I had both elbows braced to hold the stick forward. We were flying, barely, climbing a couple of hundred feet a minute at full power. The Captain was asking what's the matter, and I remember yelling don't touch nothing. We climbed straight out and by 10 DME we had around a thousand feet before I was able to let off a little pressure on the stick and call for the gear up and reduce power. That was the last time someone else decided whether or not to de-ice an airplane I had to fly.

[Doc]

Your main gear in the F27 are your speed brakes. You left them down for ten miles? Retracting the gear on that particular aircraft would have resulted in a marked increase in climb. You're very lucky to be with us.

[Bookem Lou]

I'm wondering if he had the controls full forward and brought the gear up, if the reduced nose down tendency would have raised the nose into an unrecoverable stall. Never flown an F-27 but just trying to understand his decision.

[bobcaygeon]

does retracting the gear on a F27 move the C of G forward or aft?? It can make a difference..

i'd say looking at the picts all 3 gear retract aft, moving the c of G aft, which could make the situation worse.

If it's flying and your not sure what's wrong, don't @#$! with it cause you might guess wrong. Wait til you have some altiude and airspeed before you get brave.

[Doc]

Nope. No change. Just a lot of drag. The mains on the F27 are really HUGE. You can deploy them as speed brakes at very high speed, and the nose wheel stays stowed. I seem to remember you could drop them at VNE? But no, that's one airplane you really want the gear up on. It's worse than a Metro with the spade doors still on. Most of those have been removed. I spent a couple of years on the F27...loved it.
Now, there is the train of thought that says..."If the thing is flying don't screw with anything until you get some air under your ass......" That may have been his thinking. And it did work for him. He would have got a better climb with the gear up.....but I wasn't there, and I have the luxury of being in my warm home enjoying a beer. I hang things like the gear thing out there so some may pick it up and remember it on some dark night. It's all about learning.

Didn't see you post there bobcaygeon....the increase in performance would more than pick up the slack in a C of G change.

[Siddley Hawker]

The thought that went through my mind at the time was how will the C of G move during the retraction. There was no more nose down trim or elevator available. Any shift rearward in the C of G, however minute, would have made the airplane uncontrollable. We were flying - albeit badly - and I opted not to change the configuration.

Edited to add: Doc the mains are the speed brakes on the F-27 that are equipped with them. You could drop the 'em at VNE, but I think there may have been a speed restriction on the retraction, I can't remember. That aircraft wasn't fitted with speed brakes.

[trey kule]

These 'there I was' experiences are interesting, and great for the bar, but exactly what is being learned from them? Seems to me that they almost say, look you can get away with it....I did.

the message here should be dont go with surface contamination. Period. Does hearing tales of how stupid some of us were (and I am including myself in this group) lead to anything?

I am going to say it. Surface contamination bad. dont fly with it. And if you need a tale to convince you of that you have a learning problem. the folks who could really tell you how bad it was are dead.

My rant for the night

[Doc]

Trey, you call that a rant? That wasn't a rant.
The stories go to reinforce the obvious. It says: "If this can happen to us, it can happen to you...." It's all very well and good to say "surface contamination bad"..and it is. But what happens when you ignore it. That's what you will never learn from the 50 question exam. So, we gave them three stories. Pretty high time guys. Liquid Charlie, who is one of the most gifted airplane drivers I have ever flown with scared himself, as did Cat and myself. The message is clear, yet guys still do it. So, if the odd tale of "stupid do" will help get the message across, then it's a good thing.

[angry inch]

Yeah, agreed...

Trey,

It's pretty obvious that you don't go with surface contamination... These guys are the ones who did, & lived to tell others "Don't do it!!"
I think it is very valuable to hear the specifics of a/c & conditions from the crews who rolled the dice & managed to get through it. They're not saying "hey, if we can do it, you can!!" It's more like "We thought that small amount of hoar was negligible,but... etc.." These are REAL WORLD EXPERIENCES...

You can learn a lot from the dead guys too, it's just that the TSB usually has to come up with the best guess when it comes to icing accidents, because more often than not, the pilots aren't around to tell you the specifics about what didn't work for them....

It's a lot more constructive than where the thread was headed... & if you want to tell about an ingenious de-ice trick you devised, or how you used the wrong fluid & it wouldn't shear off on t/o, go for it!!

[Doc]

Try this. You've parked the plane at Armpit Lake. There was a wee bit of freezing rain last night. What to do? The dumb bunny in the right seat left the tank of deice in the warm hangar at home. Twit. Find a 5 gallon lard pail. Fill it 3/4 full of hot water. "Borrow" a couple of gallon jugs of windshield anti freeze. Mix 1/2 of your windshield anti freeze to your hot water. Pour slowly over the left wing......sweep. Repeat for right wing, and tail. This will work like snot through the beak of a goose in temps typical of freezing rain. You don't get freezing rain if it's 30 below. Off you go now, and remember your deice tank next time.

[trey kule]

It's pretty obvious that you don't go with surface contamination... These guys are the ones who did, & lived to tell others "Don't do it!!"

Actually, I have.. And ihave had a few interesting experiences with it. Dont do it anymore.
When I look back on it, I asked myself "why?"" Well the reason I rationalized it is becuase, all the rhetoric aside, it is possible to sometimes get a plane in the air with surface contamination, and let it burn off. And heck, the old guys around the hangar told me they had done it.

So I am against stories that demonstrate nothing but inexperience and stupidity.

Doc didnt seem to like the simplicity of my message, but I am unequivical. If you have surface contamination dont go. dont think it is just a little bit of contamination, and after all, CAt Doc and the others had some interesting tales to tell and got away with it.

So let me rephrase my advice. If you have surface contamination, there is no way you can rationalize taking off except through stupidity....and try and think how that will come across in the investigation if you live.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So let me rephrase my advice. If you have surface contamination, there is no way you can rationalize taking off except through stupidity....and try and think how that will come across in the investigation if you live.

Yes, it is stupid to take off with "any" ice or frost on the wing...I do not see anywhere where either Doc or me said anything different.

In the story I related I was a co-pilot and young and inexperienced enough to accept the argument the captain gave about it being just light frost......we nearly died.

Maybe the lesson that taught me has something to do with flying for another 39 years since that night.

Maybe, just maybe by relating what I learned so long ago some young kid will think twice about flying with " just a little bit of frost on the wings "??

[trey kule]

Cat wrote:
[quote]Maybe, just maybe by relating what I learned so long ago some young kid will think twice about flying with " just a little bit of frost on the wings "??


[quote]

Maybe, but maybe they will take the postion that "CAt did it"" Other guys did it. I am in hurry, plane is light, I have a good wind, no obstacles...rationalizations by the human mind are endless.
I dont want to argue the point Cat, I just think that there should be cleared lesson to a war story. If you and the others feel that sharing these stories is beneficial, so be it...I like to keep things simple and clear..

[Chuck Ellsworth]

O.K. fu.k it, I will quit posting these stories.

I wouldn't want any young pilot to learn from my mistakes , far better they write exams.

[Doc]

I don't know Trey, but if they remember the part where Cat pissed his pants, it might scare them away from doing something stupid. Book learning doesn't do it like hearing it from the Cat's mouth....or something like that. It's one thing to say.."Never go with a dirty wing.." and quiet another to be able to answer the question..."What happens if I do....?"


What leaves a bigger impression? Reading about carrying enough fuel? Or seeing the photos of a Navajo in downtown Winnipeg?

[trey kule]

Little cranky are we. I specifically stated that if you and the others find merit in these stories, go ahead. Because I disagree seems to me not to justify your response.

With regard to the exam, one of the posters put it well as to the purpose. The root problem of all this is that companies, and flight schools, are failing in actually providing training, and the exams are technically fraudulant. Now TC has no other recourse than to see the exams as proof of training. It is up to the companies/schools to insure the training is adequate. They are failing miserably in this...witness the number of posters here who simply want to know more and where to find info on it. That is a deplorable statement about the kind of training they received. On the other hand it is admirable that they recognize the deficiency and are taking initative to resove it.

Now getting back to the war stories. And again, if you want to argue the extreme go ahead, but the best thing all us old guys can do, in my opinion, is to say""Dont do it"

And again, I am not trying to dissuade anyone form telling stories. Just stating my thoughts.
And as Doc says, there is still people doing it. Maybe if we tried stop telling stories and just said ....well you know....

[trey kule]

Maybe Doc, maybe.

I think it is far better for the CP to tell the new pilots that if they take off with surface contamination and have an accident., they have possibly hurt people, jeopradized the companies reputataion, and cost alot of money.....
And if it happens no rationalization or excuse will do...it is a career move.
And if that means eating the costs of training by firing a Captain for doing it, it ultimately is a cheap price to pay for the company..
If CP's would actually do this, I think it would do alot more to improve safety.
The problem is, and I keep coming back tothis. Poor training. And poor management.

[trey kule]

Doc wrote:

What leaves a bigger impression? Reading about carrying enough fuel? Or seeing the photos of a Navajo in downtown Winnipeg?

The problem I see Doc, is that looking at the pictures of the Navajo, a pilot could say "well I would never be that stupid" Dont suppose the Captain of that plane thought they would be either.

The thing we have to get across to anyone wanting to learn is there are some things you just shouldnt do, or should do....and I still the best way is simple, good training, and good supervison. How many pilots have you seen in a 702/703 operation who never flew with the CP after they finished their training until the next year? Train them to the minimums and cut them loose...

As I dont want Cat pouting anymore I defer to the ""see how stupid I was stories"

[Liquid Charlie]

Give me a break -- there are no absolutes -- we all take-off with surface contamination every day - whether it be a trace of snow or a glob of deicing fluid -- boils down to knowing your airplane - damn -- I have flown around for a week with rime ice on an airplane that wouldn't wear off because it was too cold -- not allowed by todays standards -- so beat the snot out of the leading edge -- that won't affect performance will it -- I was actually violated (hate those double registered letters) for taxing out with snow on the wings of a single puck(many years before dryden) - I had checked the wings and it was loose and all was gone by the end of the runway but TC sent me the letter -- I replied with the details and no action taken but I did see the inspector later and asked him if he was gutless or just a ghoul - had the courage to send the letter but not the balls to intervene before hand --

We all know airplanes won't fly with excessive contamination but it seems that as hard as we might try we can't take "stupid" out of the word mistake. -- even with all the training and exams -- wait -- I got the solution -- ban all flying from September to May unless you are south of 30N or north of 30S --

[Flying Nutcracker]

Too much weird stuff to read in this thread so I've skimmed through without even seeing one mention of the potential disastrous effects surface contamination will have if you lose an engine... I think, because I have yet to have the guts to prove it, that my airplane can fly with a bit of contamination on it... but that's with full power available and an airplane that is in good working condition. You add contamination into a malfunction of any sort and you're asking for a challenge!

Not worth it! What it comes down to is knowing your stuff to make an educated call on when to go and when not to. Exam? It'll get your brain in the right direction to actually start gathering experience out in the real world. An exam is no good if people just do it with no intent of understanding the deeper reasoning behind one. It's a tool to show that you can learn! You never got your licenses just based on the written exams did u??? Well... same thing here. You need some theorethical knowledge that you can apply in practical terms. However stupid it may seem, this is just a way for TC to enforce the philosophy. If you don't like it... make the most of it and stay safe knowing that you have done your part at least to play their game!

FN