Why Do I Go On and On and ON about Surface Contamination??

[Doc]

Why do I? Because it's the one thing that you, as pilots have all the control over. You are the "MAN". YOU call the shots. You can prevent an accident simply by running your hand along a surface of your airplane. It couldn't be any easier than that! Forget all the warm fuzzy terms. Forget about "company culture". One simple test. You can do this. Take your hand and run it along that surface. Easy wasn't it? Look at your passengers. You just saved their lives. It only takes a minute.
This is your moment. Your time. You have ALL the control over your destiny. Forget about all the exams, flight tests, loan payments, women/men friends and family.
You don't need to know anything about hold over tables, types of anti ice systems, deice fluid types, outside air temps. None of that matters. Is that surface clear of contamination? Yes, or no. It's YOUR call. You are the KING. You and your crew and passengers could live, or die with your call.
What ya gonna do??? Then WHY are some of you NOT listening??

Aw SCREW IT! Just read the book and write the exams. When the next one augers in, don't say I didn't tell ya! Why would I care. I have the knowledge. I know where to find the info. My wings are clean. So I just don't care....have at it!

[MrWings]

Should I tell you about the time this "AME" poured a bucket of hot water over the Aztec wing to get rid of the frost?

[Cat Driver]

Doc maybe you post all this stuff so guys like wtf_over can rip into you?

[W0X0F]

Doc, there is a huge problem with your system. It's way too simple. You're going to put a lot of people out of work if you implement such a simple, logical method. We just can't have that. What with no paper to complete, file, store and retrieve for audit. Have you no compassion for those that can't? So much effort has gone into legislating common sense and you would scrap it all. How can you live with yourself?

[. ._]

WOXOF has a point. There is only one way to fly safely- and that is if your plane is at gross weight because it is filled with paperwork. Then all of them charts from the manufacturer are right on the money.

-istp

[rightseatwonder]

Doc, I agree on most of your ideas, and applaud most of your intentions on this board, but with all due respect, it may help to have an understanding of holdover times, fluid types and OAT's if your wing is 15-25 feet off the ground, your horiz/stab is 35 feet up, its a 15 foot drop from your door to the tarmac and you have a 1 hr wait for departure in icing conditions on the ground. I agree there are still accidents occuring because pilots depart without ANY consideration to the condition of their critical surfaces but you are preaching some misinformation here. Yes clean the critical surfaces of ANY contaminants.... start up and go!? Then what? what if its ground icing conditions and theres a wait to go? Clean wings at start up does not make you safe to take-off. A FULL understanding of all the things you mentioned were useless and needless is the only way to protect yourself and your passengers to the full extent of our abilities AND the law.

I do understand your original beef with the testing though, but I think you are losing subscribers to your system the further you simplify it for "clarity".

[Doc]

Did I make it too simple? Really? Ya check da surface. It's either clean, or it ain't. If it ain't, then ya just gots to do something don't ya? My whole point, is to check. That's what's not being done out there. You can be a the village idiot and still check your surface. But, some pilots just are not doing this. Once you've found contamination on the airframe, then you say."Oh my, what shall I do........" But if you don't check, you will never get to that point. But, until you check, none of that other crap matters.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hey Doc, if you really want to get a new arsehole ripped come on over to the flight training forum with me.....if you think we are out of touch with reality and not up to standard here in the 703/704/705 group you haven't lived until you get put in your place on the training forum..

[W0X0F]

Quote by istp:

WOXOF has a point. There is only one way to fly safely- and that is if your plane is at gross weight because it is filled with paperwork. Then all of them charts from the manufacturer are right on the money.

-istp

That's right, and have two pilots with their heads down completing more paperwork.

[Rockie]

You can prevent an accident simply by running your hand along a surface of your airplane. It couldn't be any easier than that! Forget all the warm fuzzy terms.

You don't need to know anything about hold over tables, types of anti ice systems, deice fluid types, outside air temps. None of that matters. Is that surface clear of contamination? Yes, or no. It's YOUR call. You are the KING.

C'mon Doc, you know better than that. It's already been mentioned, but it is not possible to run your hand along the surface of most transport category wings. And when you're number 10 in line on a dark snowy night at Pearson knowing as much as you can about all those things you mentioned matters very much. Knowledge of these things is critical to safely operating the aircraft in winter not to mention the least that could be expected of a professional. Once again you're sending the wrong message.

[invertedattitude]

Doc, I gotta tell ya man you're the first pilot I've heard who seems to have the right attitude about this.

I'm glad I don't work the ramp anymore, I can't count on my hands how many times I've told a pilot he needed to be de-iced and he declined and departed anyway.

Frost "Ahh that'll melt off before departure"

Snow "I don't think it's packed on, that'll blow off"

Or my favourite:

"I know it's freezing rain, just give us a bit extra Type IV"


Doc, I also have to add, that YES the pilot is king, but many MANY times the de-icer has far more experience in such matters than the pilot does, and believe it or not essentially none of them give a rats ass about making money for their company, they care about getting your airplane clean. Many airlines now have a two tier system, if either side says "Spray" then they spray... Pilot says no, De-icer says Yes, then they still spray, and that's the way it should be, deal with the bills later, lets keep the airplane safe.

[invertedattitude]

You can prevent an accident simply by running your hand along a surface of your airplane. It couldn't be any easier than that! Forget all the warm fuzzy terms.

You don't need to know anything about hold over tables, types of anti ice systems, deice fluid types, outside air temps. None of that matters. Is that surface clear of contamination? Yes, or no. It's YOUR call. You are the KING.

C'mon Doc, you know better than that. It's already been mentioned, but it is not possible to run your hand along the surface of most transport category wings. And when you're number 10 in line on a dark snowy night at Pearson knowing as much as you can about all those things you mentioned matters very much. Knowledge of these things is critical to safely operating the aircraft in winter not to mention the least that could be expected of a professional. Once again you're sending the wrong message.

I gotta ask a pilot of a Transport Category aircraft then.

Why when the METAR and the Tower reports Freezing rain, do pilots still choose to operate their aircraft? Why? Because they don't even have that knowledge, they just keep happening to get away with it.

[Doc]

Well Rockie, it was not really aimed at 777 drivers now was it? It was aimed at guys running King Airs, Navajos without the ground support of an Air Canada or Air France operation. I thought that would be obvious to most. It was aimed at Caravan drivers. Of course you can't "run you hand oner the wing" of something like a 767...DUH! You come across like a space shuttle commander, yet you pick fights with people that are trying to get a message through that might save somebody's life. So, lets hear something from you of a constructive nature, just for a change. What words of wisdom can you share with your fellow aviators? I know you are far wiser, and experienced than I am. Teach us.

[Doc]

Inverted. On an approach, the leading edge protection takes care of all but the worst of it. On departure, same thing. They are in it only very briefly. If on a taxi, they have probably had a good spray, and their takeoffs are within the hold over window for their deice fluids. If they are stuck on the taxiway too long, you'll see them return to deice.
Is that about it, Rockie? I'm not too bright. You might want to jump in and help me out here.

[Rockie]

You can prevent an accident simply by running your hand along a surface of your airplane. It couldn't be any easier than that! Forget all the warm fuzzy terms.

You don't need to know anything about hold over tables, types of anti ice systems, deice fluid types, outside air temps. None of that matters. Is that surface clear of contamination? Yes, or no. It's YOUR call. You are the KING.

C'mon Doc, you know better than that. It's already been mentioned, but it is not possible to run your hand along the surface of most transport category wings. And when you're number 10 in line on a dark snowy night at Pearson knowing as much as you can about all those things you mentioned matters very much. Knowledge of these things is critical to safely operating the aircraft in winter not to mention the least that could be expected of a professional. Once again you're sending the wrong message.

I gotta ask a pilot of a Transport Category aircraft then.

Why when the METAR and the Tower reports Freezing rain, do pilots still choose to operate their aircraft? Why? Because they don't even have that knowledge, they just keep happening to get away with it.

First of all, don't lump all pilots in with those who make bad decisions. Second, in light freezing rain we are still allowed to operate and there are holdover times with type IV that allow us to do that. Bottom line is as long as the anti-ice fluid is still effective we can go. Anything more than light and we are skewered, but again, don't make assumptions about all pilots based on the decision making of a few.

[invertedattitude]

12.1.1 Freezing Rain Conditions

Aircraft anti-icing fluids Hold Over Times have not been evaluated under moderate and heavy freezing rain conditions.

Aircraft have not been certified to fly in freezing rain conditions. The ability of an aircraft to continue to fly safely in these conditions is questionable.

Operation of an aircraft during freezing rain conditions should be avoided whenever possible.

And at -3C you get about 10-25min at best of a HOT for Freezing Rain. Better hope to god there's no backup after the CDF during rush-hour!

Anyway the point to where I'm going is that I've seen more than once, airplanes de-ice/anti-ice and attempt to departure in moderate or better freezing rain.

One instance we de-iced/anti-iced a 727 in freezing rain/ice pellets, the plane was on the ground prior to this for about an hour, it took 4000 litres of TypeI to clean the airplane followed by Type IV

At this point they taxiied out, lost directional control and almost skidded off the runway while taxiing on the runway, so they came back while the trucks attempted to sand the runway/taxiways more. They had then "Lost their HOT" from where I don't know they got it, but anyway, another 600 litres was needed to clean the airplane since again the fuselage was coated in ice, followed again by Type IV, they again taxiied out to the runway, once again lost directional control going to the runway, and decided at this point maybe they shouldn't go.

I know I shouldn't paint all pilots with the same brush, and I don't, but this is one example, I could rhmye off a dozen more just as stupid, and I only worked at a smaller airport.

[Doc]

Pilots of big airplanes have no more common sense than small airplane drivers. If ya can't taxi, maybe ya shouldn't fly?

[Rockie]

Well Rockie, it was not really aimed at 777 drivers now was it? It was aimed at guys running King Airs, Navajos without the ground support of an Air Canada or Air France operation. I thought that would be obvious to most. It was aimed at Caravan drivers. Of course you can't "run you hand oner the wing" of something like a 767...DUH! You come across like a space shuttle commander, yet you pick fights with people that are trying to get a message through that might save somebody's life. So, lets hear something from you of a constructive nature, just for a change. What words of wisdom can you share with your fellow aviators? I know you are far wiser, and experienced than I am. Teach us.

Stop acting like a child for Christ's sake, I was not picking a fight with you. Lots of people from every area of the industry read this forum and if you're going to dispense your little nuggets of wisdom for only a specific segment then maybe you should say so. Despite that though, knowing your stuff about holdover times and all the "fuzzy feel good terms" is called being a professional regardless of what kind of plane you're driving around.

Air Canada has nothing to help a PIC determine if his plane is safe to takeoff beyond what you have available, and like you the decision rests solely with the him. So if anything transport category pilots have to rely more on experience and all those other things you just dismissed in your earlier post.

I have no doubt your intentions are in the right place Doc, and I respect not only your experience but the "bottom line" advice you hand out. But in imparting that advice you sometimes (inadvertantly shall we say) leave out some really important stuff.

Why do you get so defensive, sarcastic and insulting? Like I said earlier, no one is threatening your position atop the pilot gene pool.

[Rockie]

12.1.1 Freezing Rain Conditions

Aircraft anti-icing fluids Hold Over Times have not been evaluated under moderate and heavy freezing rain conditions.

Aircraft have not been certified to fly in freezing rain conditions. The ability of an aircraft to continue to fly safely in these conditions is questionable.

Operation of an aircraft during freezing rain conditions should be avoided whenever possible.

And at -3C you get about 10-25min at best of a HOT for Freezing Rain. Better hope to god there's no backup after the CDF during rush-hour!

Anyway the point to where I'm going is that I've seen more than once, airplanes de-ice/anti-ice and attempt to departure in moderate or better freezing rain.

One instance we de-iced/anti-iced a 727 in freezing rain/ice pellets, the plane was on the ground prior to this for about an hour, it took 4000 litres of TypeI to clean the airplane followed by Type IV

At this point they taxiied out, lost directional control and almost skidded off the runway while taxiing on the runway, so they came back while the trucks attempted to sand the runway/taxiways more. They had then "Lost their HOT" from where I don't know they got it, but anyway, another 600 litres was needed to clean the airplane since again the fuselage was coated in ice, followed again by Type IV, they again taxiied out to the runway, once again lost directional control going to the runway, and decided at this point maybe they shouldn't go.

I know I shouldn't paint all pilots with the same brush, and I don't, but this is one example, I could rhmye off a dozen more just as stupid, and I only worked at a smaller airport.

I've seen and heard of far worse that would be embarrassing to mention here. Procedures are worthless if people don't follow them, but the vast majority of pilots do. Whenever something bad happens the worse thing we can do is take potshots from the sidelines. The whole point is to improve things, not fry the guilty. All these procedures we have for winter ops are for a reason, and Canada does it better than anyone else. Not perfect, and certainly no substitute for common sense and good judgement, but better than anywhere else.

[Doc]

Well Rockie, which ever way we slice and dice it, we can't have helped but get the point across to whoever reads our banter. At least we've fired out all the choices. Do me a favor though, lighten up on the "quote" feature.

[Rockie]

Agreed. I hate myself every time I use it.

[. ._]

Agreed. I hate myself every time I use it.

Me too.

-istp

[snaproll20]

next time anybody has a bit of ice to spare, please send me some, my drink is getting hot while I watch you guys fight.

[pilatus4life]

listen to doc dont fly with ice, why bother if a company gets mad because you are too safe and de-iceing. I THINK THERE IS A PROBLEM... its your call and your license make ythe right choice

[flyinphil]

listen to doc dont fly with ice, why bother if a company gets mad because you are too safe and de-iceing. I THINK THERE IS A PROBLEM... its your call and your license make ythe right choice

Let modify that. Listen Doc as a starting point. Listen to Rockie once you have some experience. If you make it that far...