The Value Of Solo Flying

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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

here is a bulletin. The insurance companies dont want to insure these solo students because they have accidents far and away above normal. Does that not tell you something about the training standards?
It tells me the training standards need to be reviewed and improved upon....seems that yesterdays students teaching students does not work as well with sea planes as with the basic nose wheel kiddie car trainers.

Now that we have come to an agreement why insurance coverage is so expensive who is responsible for the standards??
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
brokenwing
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by brokenwing »

.,
No i Don't think 7 hours is enough. But I think maybe 20 or 30 dual and at least 10 solo might be sufficient, or in an ideal world if a pilot was persuing a career on floats, all 200hrs should be done on floats. Float flying has so many variables that you can't possibly learn enough in 7 hours to be competent. All I was stating is that solo time is neccessary for proper PDM. I dont feel that a 50 hr bush course should be just dual training without some solo time. How do you learn to adapt to situations and react (after proper training of course), when you have that security blanket of someone beside you to slap you on the wrist or offer suggestions?.

Not that i'd know. just my opinion.
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trey kule
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by trey kule »

I am no doubt going to be flamed on this, but any of the 50 hour bush course graduates I have come across (three in the last year) were terrible float pilots. The particular "school" did not have experienced instructors, taught them things about "elementary maintenance" that were both illegal and dangerous, and did not really give them any experience, as the 50 hours was so rigidily flown. But hey, all of them said that they got some "right seat time"...which was kind of humerous becasue the particular plane they were referring to did not have controls on the right.

My advice to anyone wanting to fly in the north, is get the bare rating. Flying is just a small part of being a successful bush pilot, and if the reputable companies like the other characteristics, they will tune up your training.

Now to Cat/ ..s question about insurance companies.

You might try putting a syllabus together and then meeting with the company to explain why this would result in so much better a finsihed product. Wish you luck ....not a battle I want to fight anymore.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »


You might try putting a syllabus together and then meeting with the company to explain why this would result in so much better a finished product. Wish you luck
This is the only way a company can get a reduction in the cost of insurance.

It is difficult to do and has to be sold to the underwriters, it took me four years before I got mine approved. But once approved the savings were really worth while.

When approaching the insurance underwriters you will have to convince them that your training program is more than fancy words on paper and for sure you will not be approved with the puppy mill mentality of hiring inexperienced instructors.

Schools that are part of a float plane charter company that use high time float plane drivers with a good record safety wise would have the best chance of cutting a deal with the underwriters.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
MichaelP
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by MichaelP »

Also I thought that in Canada a TC certified flight instructor can teach sea plane flying as soon as they get their seven hour rating.
Nope; got to have 50 hours on floats.
I'd love to teach floats but I'd need another twenty.

A pilot who has been trained properly in anything should be adaptable to anything they sudsequently fly.

When we learn to fly we work towards that very important first solo and this normally occurs before 15 hours is reached.
In China students weren't allowed to go solo before 25 hours and frequently had over 30 hours dual before first solo. This had a bad effect on their training as they did not reach the point where they had to demonstrate self reliance until (too) late.
IMHO a solo at the right time and relatively early in one's training sets you up to take responsibility within your training. That early self reliance has a huge importance to the future training.
I sent one student solo at 17 hours in China. It caused an uproar from my bosses, but that student was excellent and there's a point where you start to ruin the progress he has made by engaging in rigmarole.

At every other professional school in this World, if the student is not solo by 15 hours there's a problem!

As we train we are confronted with solo and dual and solo, and we have to do a long solo cross country...
We develop decision making skills on our own.

Now, I want to talk about all this lore about float flying.

IMHO the requirements for Float Pilot experience is overstated, and float drivers often overstate their skills.
This has been proven many times in recent times by float drivers who could not handle a tailwheel aeroplane nor cope with ATC and navigation in the lower mainland.

I am sorry to say that float pilots are not necessarily better pilots than the rest of us.

A pilot who is properly trained in a landplane should easily check out in a seaplane within the seven hour requirement. I did my float rating when it was only 5, and I did 1 hour 5 mins solo.

It's not flying the aeroplane that is important, an aeroplane is an aeroplane in the air regardless of the alighting gear it has.
It is the knowledge you have that has been learned on the ground and perhaps experienced in the air that is important.
A float rating should include a fair amount of groundschool covering all the aspects of water flying...
In England you have to complete the same course as a yachtsman to get a seaplane rating, you learn the rules of the road, the water road! There is a written exam covering buoys, lights, and marine navigation.

Pilots are encouraged to learn decision making skills, and some of these skills are practiced when the student flies solo.

Whether you are doing a precautionary landing in a field or alighting in a remote lake, many of the decisions are the same.
Surface? Glassy or grassy. Obstructions? deadheads or ditches?, Wind?, Approach?
It is all very similar.

The most important thing a pilot can learn is to read, and to want to read, to read about anything to do with aviation whether it be the experiences of a WWII bomber pilot, the pilots notes for some strange aircraft, or float flying manuals... There's a lot to be gleaned to be stored for future reference when a decision has to be made.

I maintain that solo flying is an important part of a pilot's training.

A question for you float pilots who had to do that solo flight in the floatplane, how did that first solo feel?
Was it a boost to your morale?
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Like all discussions on Avcanada these opinions just go around and around.

I have given mine and you all have given yours.....

The solo thing is a red herring when discussing a cross over type of training from wheels to floats because if a pilot has not developed a sense of self confidence from the solo flying he/she has done prior to the sea plane six or so hours of dual then five take offs and landings will not be the magic bullet.

So back to the way things are now...go learn from the fifty hour on floats instructor because they have that all important piece of paper.

Sorry for having taken up so much time here but for me it has been worth it.

I no longer have any interest in what the training industry does...happy insurance fees to all of you.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
MichaelP
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by MichaelP »

go learn from the fifty hour on floats instructor because they have that all important piece of paper.
Not necessarily!
A CPL with 50 hours on floats can teach a float rating without having an instructor rating :shock:

This could lead to a discussion on instructional standards...
We can't be choosy these days there's not enough talent going around :(

All we can hope for is for someone with experience to be there to give guidance to the low experience instructors and not-instructors who do the training.

During the second World War, 'instructors' had often just completed their own primary training before being selected as such...
I like to think that the groundschool instructors took up the experience slack then.
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cessnafloatflyer
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by cessnafloatflyer »

I'd love to teach floats but I'd need another twenty.

Now, I want to talk about all this lore about float flying.

IMHO the requirements for Float Pilot experience is overstated, and float drivers often overstate their skills.
This has been proven many times in recent times by float drivers who could not handle a tailwheel aeroplane nor cope with ATC and navigation in the lower mainland.
Michael P i don't really know who you are, but you have stated that you have 30 hrs in a Seaplane so i am not sure that you have the experience to make these comments. I certainly would not be making them about MIFR pilots, beacuse i am not one.

As far as ATC and Navigation... give me a break! There are so many floatplanes crossing through Victoria and Vancouver class C in a day it's ridiculous! Also, we are doing it in VERY marginal conditions much of the time, perhaps in 1 mile vis. Please! Navigation. I don't know who you are but i'd like to see your training pilots come out and navigate me at 300 ft through that with 6 passengers and 30 kts of wind while talking to ATC at Vic harbour, YYJ, YVR and YHC, single pilot and in 20 minutes! We are not on airways, no vectors, no MEA or MOCA and we are single pilot. Not to mention the tiny places that we have to land and take off from in rough wind and water conditions, no threshold no clean smooth runways.

I am not saying we are better or more talented than anyone else in aviation it's just that we specialize in something different. Our safety comes from ourselves, not published routes and approaches.
Whether you are doing a precautionary landing in a field or alighting in a remote lake, many of the decisions are the same.
Surface? Glassy or grassy. Obstructions? deadheads or ditches?, Wind?, Approach?
It is all very similar.
Absolute garbage... apples and oranges! Landing on glassy water as opposed to landing on grass... oh yeah very similar! Please gimme the grass!

You're really looking foolish to me with these statements... stick to what you know!

By the way -- i sent yet another pilot on his solo today. I was full of confidence and had no issues with it - though he now has a seaplane rating. he did little to prove his proficiency to TC. He did write my own exam, answered my preflight questions and 5 landings that i saw from the dock. TC only knows about the landings as required.
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Last edited by cessnafloatflyer on Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MichaelP
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by MichaelP »

Michael P i don't really know who you are, but you have stated that you have 30 hrs in a Seaplane so i am not sure that you have the experience to make these comments. I certainly would not be making them about MIFR pilots, beacuse i am not one.
I wouldn't make them about MIFR pilots either, to me that's a totally different form of flying.
That's why I refered to the tailwheel situation.
When it comes to flying floatplanes, many of the decisions you make are similar to 'strip' flying in wheeled aeroplanes.
Yes, I only have 30 hours in floatplanes, and I would love to have a whole lot more, it's great fun most of the time.
I did a lot in those thirty hours; it wasn't all straight and level.
Absolute garbage... apples and oranges! Landing on glassy water as aoopsed to landing on grass... oh yeah very similar! Please gimme the grass!
A glassy water landing is done power on with minimal sink rate, very similar to a soft field wheeled landing but with the difference that it is not as easy to know where the surface is when it's glassy water.
And the same decisions have to be made with respect to getting in and out again.
I have flown into many tight strips and tight fields, and I have done the same into a couple of small lakes... Small sheltered lakes that suffered from glassy water conditions.
Flying over and checking a small lake out, and the approach path into it, is not very different to checking out a field.

I don't think it's all that different.
I am not saying we are better or more talented than anyone else in aviation it's just that we specialize in something different. Our safety comes from ourselves, not published routes and approaches.
I agree that you do a very good job here on the BC coast, and you have very good talents otherwise you would not survive.

So back to the topic...

How important was the solo time you have had to the development of the skills you have gained?
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cessnafloatflyer
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by cessnafloatflyer »

Michael P,
So, then a newly licensed pilot can rent one of you new planes and take it solo into whatever landings they would like because you have trained them? Short Grass Fields (like on Pender Is.,) Courtenay, Duncan and the like? How about with big cross-winds?
This could lead to a discussion on instructional standards...
We can't be choosy these days there's not enough talent going around
So what are your standard for hiring instructors then? If there isn't much talent what will you do, hire the best of the worst?

I beleive that there is much to be gained by flying solo, however with only 7 hours in a seaplane, there isn't much that you can safely do, unsupervised; at least here on the coast in such variable weather, difficult docks, traffic and changing wx and ocean conditions. 5 landings in ideal conditions proves little. Most if not all of my students agree.
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

A glassy water landing is done power on with minimal sink rate, very similar to a soft field wheeled landing but with the difference that it is not as easy to know where the surface is when it's glassy water.
MichaelP, you are probably a nice guy who means well but you either don't understand how to write a description of a subject such as glassy water or you do not really understand the subject clearly.

For your information it is " IMPOSSIBLE " to see the surface over glassy water, therefore it is " IMPOSSIBLE " to know where it is.

To make the comparison of a soft field landing on wheels and a glassy water landing in the manner you just did is just plain wrong.
This could lead to a discussion on instructional standards...
We can't be choosy these days there's not enough talent going around
There is lots of talent around, the problem is you can not hire real talent for the embarrassing low pay that the flight training industry is offering.
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Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth on Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
trey kule
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by trey kule »

Cat. You took the words right out of my mouth , so to speak.

Dont know how many new float pilots I have seen over the years, who dont understand this.
They all seem to give lip service to it but then kind of add that they can tell. Much aluminum on the bottom of lakes from the thinking of pilots like MichealP.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

How important was the solo time you have had to the development of the skills you have gained?
It was very important, in fact important enough that I can ask for and get paid 250 Euro per flight hour ($369.00 Canadian dollars at todays exchange rate. ).

And that allows me to be able to afford teaching aids that are so far beyond what FTU's offer that my time is obviously worth it to my clients.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by xsbank »

Personally, I don't think that a float pilot should be allowed to go solo with less than fifty hours, if gained slowly, or, say 30 hours gained all in one swell foop.

I think the endorsement/training program should be scrapped completely and 'float endorsements' should only be 'awarded' by CPs after the candidate has passed a company-sanctioned check-out program. Then they can go solo, maybe only with freight for a while, but the insurance companies will be happier and the student will have an inkling of what he is supposed to be doing.

The present program is just a piece of paper that allows one to continue with training and unreasonably unloads some of the costs of training onto the student. In fact, this should also be the case with the multi-rating, or any other rating for that matter. Testing students with 5 hours on something is asinine and really does not predict whether the student really is safe, because at this stage
he really does not know anything.

Private candidates - 30 hour twin/instrument/float ratings.
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Etienne »

Coming from a non-float-plane country (as far as I'm aware, despite there being 2000+kms of coast, not a single float plane on the register), and this being my first real post on AvCanada, I may be sticking my neck out here...

When I was doing my PPL here in SA, I went solo at 6 hours, and was the best thing that could have happened. I was lucky enough to train at a field with no ATC, so averaged 20 circuits/hour, hence the low time. By the time the PPL was finished, I had about 15 hours solo... I found that it focussed me in future lessons, as I found myself thinking about what I would do if I was alone. I had the opportunity to ask my instructor after each solo flight what I had experienced and learned by myself, something I wouldn't be able to easily after I had completed my training.

So it should be with any rating. If your instructor is not confident in your abilities to fly the school's plane by yourself then (s)he shouldn't be signing you out. If it's an insurance thing, then at least your instructor should insist that once you have completed your rating (dual) and got the signature, that you return for a few hours solo. Insurance is happy, the pilot is confident and TC's requirements have been met.
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Hedley »

If it's an insurance thing
Right. To get reasonable insurance, the operator
might need to have it's PIC's have (eg) 500
hours on floats. A bare rating isn't going to
exactly impress your broker!
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Etienne
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Etienne »

From the previous posts I surmised that that was the case... If the insurance companies are looking for 500 hour PIC's, at least they're consistent, albeit still somewhat misguided :roll: :lol:
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Etienne, do you ever go to Rand airport?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Etienne »

. . wrote:Etienne, do you ever go to Rand airport?
Yep, it's 20 mins from work... Go to the Harvard for lunch on Fridays sometimes.


Why? ;)
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Testing students with 5 hours on something is asinine and really does not predict whether the studenTesting students with 5 hours on something is asinine and really does not predict whether the student really is safe, because at this stage
he really does not know anything.
I agree with the testing at five hours being idiotic as a true measure of what the student really knows, especially with regard to the five solo T.O.'s and landings in a float plane. The 5 solo T.O.'s and landings are done in ideal conditions and only when the student is " in the grove " on a given day.....sure it satisfies T.C. 's requirement but that is all it does.

because at this stage he really does not know anything.
That is not exactly true because the student has satisfied the instructor that he/she can maybe get away with solo T.O.'s and landings to satisfy the requirements.....but one must remember we are in many cases talking about two students here the instructor who is learning and the student who is paying for the instructors schooling.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Yep, it's 20 mins from work... Go to the Harvard for lunch on Fridays sometimes.


Why? ;)
One of my clients has a PBY being restored at Rand and I am wondering how the work is progressing.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Dont know how many new float pilots I have seen over the years, who dont understand this.
They all seem to give lip service to it but then kind of add that they can tell. Much aluminum on the bottom of lakes
Trey Kule, there is so much pure B.S. in the flight instruction industry that TC turns a blind eye to that you could fertilize several third world countries and feed the starving population.

Out here in this region we had a big to do several years ago about some guy doing float plane ratings and not having the students do the five solo take offs and landings.

Yet these same morons are quite happy approving any and all applications where all their paper work is filled out correct and are to fu.kin stupid to ever scratch their heads and wonder where all these instructors are finding all that glassy water to do proper training for the glassy water portion of flight training....it is impossible to give float plane ratings in a short period of time over and over and have actually done it on glassy water.

In that I am already so far off the radar screen with the flying industry and TC I really don't give a crap what these people think of me or my opinions so let me make something perfectly clear about this farse they call training.

Unless a student has experienced actual glassy water during their training they really can not appreciate what glassy water really entails when it comes to actually landing on it......

...yeh, the five solo take offs and landings are what determines the true measure of what the student really knows...typical of the mentality at TC ....idiots.....
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by canpilot »

Thank you .!


When I did my training I learned from an experienced commerical float driver. The training I recieved was invaluable. There's a massive difference between floats and wheels! The "50 hour course" I took involved Solo (supervised) and dual. There wasn't one flight where I walked away learning nothing..

However, simply bombing around solo in my opinion wouldn't have been as productive.

Amen to creating some sort of standard... However, Cat.. how do you suppose TC would take to teaching " real world experience" as opposed to book experience.. eg regs.. etc. ? Where would you find these instructors/ TC examiners? I think you are talking about a completely sound re-vamped way of thinking ..good luck with that!! ROFL!


Keep the posts coming cat.. I'm with ya
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Amen to creating some sort of standard... However, Cat.. how do you suppose TC would take to teaching " real world experience" as opposed to book experience.. eg regs.. etc. ?
The answer is evident by examining the present situation, how could anyone expect the TC flight training people to work in an enviorement they have never experienced?
Where would you find these instructors/
There are hundreds of high time pilots out there who could step in and give excellent instruction.....but not under the present set up.
TC examiners? I think you are talking about a completely sound re-vamped way of thinking ..good luck with that!! ROFL!
I would love to be able to laugh about it but it is just to pathetic to laugh about.

By the way do you know what an IQ of 140 is?

The IQ in Tower C added up.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: The Value Of Solo Flying

Post by CD »

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