Advice on flight training, please.

[Fitzy_flyer]

hey guys! so im just finishing high school, and now im looking at what i should be doing after. i really want to eventually get my commercial pilots license and such but im not sure what i should do first and what would be my best beat if i want a career in that. so should i go right into training on all of that or do you think doing something in college would be best. and if i were to go to college what would be something that would benefit me....flight management? lol i don even know. (i have don some research but i seem to get lost some times) thoughts and comments would be much appreciated.
also to add, this summer im already planning on getting my private license through cadets.

[Adam Oke]

First of all, congrats on the scholarship. I got my PPL through cadets as well .... 6 months later I was a licensed commercial pilot. Did some time building at a gliding club, not more than 3 months after my CPL flight test I was up in Northern Ontario for my first job.

So scratch to finish and holding a job in the industry in under a year’s time. Not bad I’d say. How? Just you’re plain old local FTU. No aviation degree in flight management here. The general consensus is that a degree is not required in the industry. Experience is. When poking my nose around for jobs I didn’t hear: "Oh...well you didn’t go to Seneca and get a degree!". I heard: "Oh..You`re just like every other 200 hr wonder and don’t have any experience".

Degree or not you are in the same boat as everyone else.

Some people are going to tell you that you MUST have a back up plan! They will say: Go and get a degree so if or when you lose your medical you have an education to fall back on. Well....realistically....when are you likely to lose you medical? As you age maybe? As you age do you think your degree will age too? So you are 19 now ....... worst case scenario, Doc pokes his finger up your butt at 40 and says you are grounded from flying. Well shit.....my degree is 20years old now. Who is going to hire an ex pilot engineer with a 20yr old ticket and zero experience in the field.

I say your back up plan is save your money so when the worst case comes along you A) Will not fall on your ass and B) You could go back to school if you so pleased and have a fresh ticket with a fresh resume and working knowledge of your new industry today ... or ... tomorrow... err. You get the point though.

So all in all my advice is if you really want to be a pilot. Just go to an FTU ... make it as painless as possible by ripping the band aid off fast (spend your money and do your flight training promptly ... don’t fart around). All that being said, it’s not a race, but it will be more efficient if you complete training close together at your learning pace.

[Fitzy_flyer]

okay so its safe to say i dont need to waste my time applying some where this jan. then?

okay well in september ill be 18, and hopfully have my priviate license so i could go right into commercial training then? will companies even higher people as young as me? or is it just as long as i have enough experiance?

[JBI]

Hey Fitzy,

You're off to a good start with getting your PPL through cadets. Not only are you surrounded by other motivated cadets, but you get your licence for free and make great contacts in the industry! Although I wasn't in cadets, a number of the folks I flew with were.

Deciding which route to take to do your flight training is a complicated decision and I don't think that there's one 'right' path. Just a right path for a particular person. As Adam Oke has stated, lots of people will have different opinions as to what route is best. There are lots of different things to consider.

I am a strong proponent of having a back up plan. That being said, you don't necessarily have to do that first, but rather just have an idea as to what you'd do if you lost your medical or if you want a change from flying. I don't totally agree with Adam Oke's opinion of a 20 year old degree being worthless, but having a degree/diploma won't necessarily help you in getting your first job. It will however help with Air Canada, where although a degree is not necessary, it's worth a lot of 'points' in determining who gets an interview.

Other things to think about include:

Finances - do you have enough money to pay for your licences right away, or would going to a subsidized college in Ontario make more sense? Also, going to an unsubsidized college may make it easier to obtain Government Student Loans depending on your province (although those in themselves would not cover the full extent of training)

Discipline - are you the type of person that can get things done on your own, or would it perhaps be better to be part of a college/univeristy program that has set requirements to get you through.

Location - is there a place that is closer to your home that can save you money or would you have to move no matter what?

Employment During / After Flight Training - If you have a good part-time job that can help pay for flying, it may be tough if you go through a college. Also, a specific flight training school may also have a charter division associated with it that could help you get a job when you're done. Or, you could do an instuctors rating and worth there first for a while. At a college however, you may get the opportunity to meet other students who will make good networking contacts in the future.

Only you can know the best route for yourself. There are pros and cons to each college and local flight school. Whatever route you choose however, its up to you to work hard to succeed.

Cheers!

[JBI]

Just to add - If you're in your last year of High School and the College applications are coming up, it'd still be worthwhile to apply to a few of them. The application fees are not that expensive (although they're still more than they should be!) and this way you'll have more options if you decide this summer that you still want to go to college or University.

[Fitzy_flyer]

thanks for all the advice! But i don't even know what the heck to apply for in college then. what kind of diploma would serve me well. Im probably asking to many question that i should be figuring out for myself but its not like any guidance councler would know what the hell they're talking about lol. maybe ill just wait till next year to apply for college i suppose. because i really need to have my application in by the end of jan. man being a last minute person really sucks lol. im like freaking out! its deffinatly a sign that your freaking out if your asking people on an online forum for career advice LOL. though im sure you guys really do know what your talking about so i do know its probably all good advice.

[JBI]

No need to freak out. Just need to do a bit more research that's all.

The guidance counsellor may be able to help, and if not, recommend that they get my book "So, You Want to be a Pilot, Eh?" so he or she will be able to help other High School students who ask for help about becoming a pilot. There's also a book about becoming a doctor and a lawyer in the same series and we think they'd be useful for High Schools. (Ok, done with the advertising )

The major subsidized Colleges in Ontario with Aviation Programs are:
Confederation College in Thunder Bay
Sault College in Sault Ste. Marie
Seneca College in Toronto

Each has a specific Aviation Program with either a technical or business focus. There are also a number of other smaller unsubsidized Colleges in Ontario (Algonquin, Conestoga, Georgian & Lambton) as well as numerous ones outside of the province.

The University of Western Ontario in London and The University of Waterloo also have Aviation degree programs.

Take a lot at those different programs and see if any suit your fancy. Feel free to ask more questions though, that's what this forum is for.

There isn't one right way to become a pilot.

[Pete]

A degree/diploma is definatley worth something, regardless of how long its been since you got it.

[AntiNakedMan]

Fitzy has a bit of a ways to go yet; at this point he still has to write his entrance exams and pass his selection boards to recieve the PPL scholarship. Good luck with those, remember all the other candidates want it just as badly as you do.

For the getting a degree/diploma other than just flying, it's important to keep in mind that while you might be in perfect health now it doesn't take much for your body to do something silly. You can always be an accountant, doctor, lawyer, banker, computer game designer from a wheelchair. I'm not sure you can fly commercially from one though.

All the best.

ANM

[Fitzy_flyer]

Fitzy has a bit of a ways to go yet; at this point he still has to write his entrance exams and pass his selection boards to recieve the PPL scholarship. Good luck with those, remember all the other candidates want it just as badly as you do.

For the getting a degree/diploma other than just flying, it's important to keep in mind that while you might be in perfect health now it doesn't take much for your body to do something silly. You can always be an accountant, doctor, lawyer, banker, computer game designer from a wheelchair. I'm not sure you can fly commercially from one though.

All the best.

ANM

im actually a female lol.
and yes i know, i havent even taken the exam yet but im just cocky and think im going to get it because iv studied so hard. iv done ground for 3 years now with cadets so if i fail im a pretty big nob lol.

thanks JBI, i have actually looked at those major colleges but i didn't realize i wanted to become a pilot until last year. i didn't know what i wanted to do at all actually so i thought it would be bright to only take applied/college level courses. so i would have more trouble getting into those colleges. Though i might as well try.
also, does anyone know it it really even matters if you have physics when applying to the college, i know they all want you to have physics but does anyone know if you can still get in with out it?

[Pete]

Fitzy has a bit of a ways to go yet; at this point he still has to write his entrance exams and pass his selection boards to recieve the PPL scholarship. Good luck with those, remember all the other candidates want it just as badly as you do.

For the getting a degree/diploma other than just flying, it's important to keep in mind that while you might be in perfect health now it doesn't take much for your body to do something silly. You can always be an accountant, doctor, lawyer, banker, computer game designer from a wheelchair. I'm not sure you can fly commercially from one though.

All the best.

ANM

Exactly, I had a buddy who was healthy as a horse...very very fit and lost his medical.
Just because you want to be a pilot doesnt mean life has to revolve around it. I would reccomend going to Seneca,Sault, Confed...get your training for free and get a diploma out of it. School is about the experience as well, and developing as a person. Even non-aviation related, its an investment and is always a plus to have.

[JBI]

also, does anyone know it it really even matters if you have physics when applying to the college, i know they all want you to have physics but does anyone know if you can still get in with out it?

You'd have to check with the individual college. However, in my case (back when Ontario had OAC / grade 13) I had to take grade 12 physics in night school during OAC so I could get into Seneca.

[Highflyinpilot]

Well what I did is i got my ppl, then cpl, then floats, and regret spending the 40k( after all my licences I got into a skilled trade non aviation related), I so wished I had just gotten my PPL, about 6-8K, in your case maybe free, and got my skilled trade first, THEN proceed with the CPL and floats if I wanted too. Now im making a decent living however im still payong off my debt from my CPL.

If I had gotten my skilled trade first, I would have been able to pay for my CPL and floats cash, and have no debt, but at the time I was working for minimum wage at a local A&W(many moons ago) so went and got a loan to get my training done as fast as possible, but what i wished I had done was get a loan to go to trade school(would have cost nothing compare to what my flying did) so I wouldnt have a big loan to pay back, then get my cpl pay as you go type of thing.

Ah well, when your young you just wanna do what looks cool, not whats actually more beneficial

[wxnut]

as long as looking cool can be supplied by mommy and daddy.

[husky]

Assuming you get your PPL through cadets, find a flight school afterwards that will hire you to work the line or dispatch part-time. Pick THIS school to do commercial training up to an Instructor Rating. You are already working there, and they will hire you as an instructor at this point. Work there for 1.5 years then apply to the next step, medevac, regional, whatever.

If fast career progression is your goal, this is really the best way to go about it...unless you have some very good contacts in the industry that can get you "in".

Save your money, save your time...if flying doesn't work out, then pursue something afterwards. Doesn't hurt to have a backup plan in mind though.

[MichaelP]

First of all, congratulations to Adam Oke who continued to fly after he had his flying scholarship.
I like that very much.

I have met so many ex cadets in Britain and in Canada who put themselves forward and won the scholarship only to let it all go afterwards.
After winning the scholarship, hurray hurray, they did not pursue their flying afterwards as a PPL or CPL.
I think of all the eager kids who would just love to fly, for whom that scholarship would be such a benefit, and yet because of the system, the scholarship was wasted on someone who was not interested beyond winning it.

Flying training vs college

There's no doubt in my mind... Learn to fly, but go to college!

The flying business is always fluctuating, it's good for a few years and then it dies for a few years...

Yes, you may be lucky, you may hit it at the right time and have a good career without an education...
But that education will always stand you in good stead, and who knows, if you go to a major airline with a degree some flying experience and enthusiasm, they may train you for the CPL, frozen ATPL, and teach you to fly their jets at their cost!
I've had two PPL students go to HK, one was a cadet with Dragon Air and one is a cadet with Cathay Pacific.
One is online now flying Airbusses, and the other is in training. Ones a guy, the other's a girl. and both have education beyond High School.

There are a few Adams about who were lucky to get a break, but there are so many others who scrape through their lives...
Don't end up like me with the Canadian government saying I'll get $62.50c a month pension at age 65!

I assess my students and give them advice when it's asked for...
I've advised more than one student to continue his training as a doctor. Most doctors I know can buy their own little aeroplane and go out and have fun without the Dickensian situation most newbie CPLs find themselves in.

One of my earliest 'students' did his PPL in a Tomahawk, and bought a share in an Auster to build time. This 'Auster (AOP 6)' was an A61 Terrier, we called it a Terrifier, it's a very daunting aeroplane for a nosedragger pilot. But my friend had built and flown all sorts of model aeroplanes and adapted to tailwheel easily.
Instructor rating was next, then CPL/ME/IR.
He got a job flying the Shed (SD330), was an FO, then a Captain, and then a Training Captain!
Went to the 737-400 right seat, didn't like it, went to the Fokker 100 instead and liked it... Took some time to fly F100s in France while his company went broke, came out without a job and walked straight into the right seat of a 747-200, then the company got the Airbus 340, and while still in his early 30's he worked up to become a Training Captain in it!
Some people have a charmed life when it comes to getting the right job at the right time!
But this was not in Canada.

I doubt that there will ever be a living to be made in little aeroplanes, but to fly the big aeroplanes and command a living wage you are far more likely to succeed by having a degree.

Go to school

[Fitzy_flyer]

well, my entrance exam is this Saturday so all i can do now is study my ass off and read from the ground up a million times. if i dont get this then it sure does screw up my plans. Though im going to get my license either way. i really DO hope i end up being one of the those blessed people. because it wouldn't be nice to go into debt for nothing. The only thing i see in my future is flying and really do hope to god i wont have a hard time lol. but yah iv been thinking about it more as well, and i think a diploma or something would be my best bet. thanks for all your advice it helped me out.

[Adam Oke]

Thanks Michael P. I have a lot to say about cadets that recieve this scholarship and do not continue on in the world of aviation...but I have that discussion going on in a different forum right now haha.

There are a few Adams about who were lucky to get a break, but there are so many others who scrape through their lives...

If you call trailer life, living pay check to pay check a break .... by all means call me lucky. I'm in the industry. Canada and New Zealand. I wouldn't call it a break. In my off season ... sure I'm currently "livin the life in New Zealand" as everyone has told me ..... I make $150/ week doing what I do in New Zealand. Yea....lucky to get a break. Try, work your ass off to get into, and a start in the industry. That is more suitable. This fits for pretty well everyone starting in the industry. I think the people that were lucky to get a break were the ones that grew up around aviation, having a member of the family with a plane to build time on at minimal cost, having a member of the family in the industry .... that's lucky

Rest assured Fitzy_Flyer, you are in for a ride! A great ride indeed. Work hard at getting that CPL done, be it college or a local FTU. Then work twice as hard to get your first job. It'll all pay off and you too can be "lucky to get a break". By that, I mean earn a position in the industry, much like you worked over the past few years in cadets to earn your PPL scholarship. You will still scrape through your life.

[MichaelP]

That is indeed lucky Adam, you got to do what you wanted to do and weren't pushed into doing something else.

"You will still scrape through your life.".... and you'll end up with my $62.50 a month pension!.

Canada is such a cultural difference from Europe.
In Europe the sports car, or a snazzy GTi is every boy's dream, here it's the pick-up truck!
In Canada many kids grow up to bang nails into two by fours on building sites, good money there, and I've known many commercial multi engine instrument rated pilots who ended up doing it!
In Europe a licence will nearly always get you a reasonably paid job.

UBC and SFU are populated by Asian students... These kids don't always have the cultural freedom their European extraction associates have, their families often insist they go to school whether they like it or not.
These kids will be the employers who hire people to bang nails into two by fours on building sites!

If you are born WASP you had better equip yourself with skills and learning because Canada's positive discrimination policies will put you down.

One friend of mine went for a float job in Ontario, he had a lot of experience... He didn't get it, there was something about the Ontario government favouring visible minorities with a subsidy to the employer. Why would an employer hire a WASP when he can get a lot of the cost paid by the government to employ someone else?

Being female is a definate plus for employers, and if you are a visible minority all the better!
I know a girl who did not have a float rating... She got a job flying floats on the West Coast albeit as an FO, but it's a start.
She went out and got her float rating, 7 hours, and then a PCC in the aeroplane.
I helped her with the Twotter systems, and the PT6 engine, I answered her questions, and those I did not know the answer, I knew where to find them.

I'll help and encourage anyone in this aviation business, but I am sad when I see someone with excellent skills being discriminated against because of some PC policy.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I know a girl who did not have a float rating... She got a job flying floats on the West Coast albeit as an FO, but it's a start.
She went out and got her float rating, 7 hours, and then a PCC in the aeroplane.
I helped her with the Twotter systems, and the PT6 engine, I answered her questions, and those I did not know the answer, I knew where to find them.

West Coast Air does not have an in company training program for the Twin Otter?

[MichaelP]

West Coast Air does not have an in company training program for the Twin Otter?

Did I say it was them???

Regardless of her experience, this girl wanted to be fully prepared and have a basic understanding before she did the company's training program.
I think that is a very good attitude to have to be as prepared as posssible, know your limitations and make the effort to expand your knowledge in advance of the course.

Like one respondant to another string on this forum who wrote that he would study the Citabria manual and know it back to front if he was to be interviewed by a school that operated one, it is the mark of a good aviator to be prepared.

The pilot concerned did very well I understand, and I believe she moved on to the Maldives.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Did I say it was them???

They are the only operator in your area operating the TO.

[MichaelP]

[Grey_Wolf]

I have met so many ex cadets in Britain and in Canada who put themselves forward and won the scholarship only to let it all go afterwards.
After winning the scholarship, hurray hurray, they did not pursue their flying afterwards as a PPL or CPL.
I think of all the eager kids who would just love to fly, for whom that scholarship would be such a benefit, and yet because of the system, the scholarship was wasted on someone who was not interested beyond winning it.

I also went through the Cadet Power Scholarship. Of the 14, on my course back in 2000, there are 2 besides me that I know of that are still flying. Last summer, however, I in turn gave back to the cadet system by teaching 4 towards their PPL. Of the class of 12, there are 6 presently attending Sault, 1 in Oshawa at Durham, and 1 flying leisurly. That's better odd than the norm. I believe that I heard through a Cadet League Chairperson that if 2-3 of every 10 continue on, then it's a success. As a kicker, it costs the League and the DND, approx 13k per student to pay for their trainig, lodging, and meals; not to mention the 60$/week training bonuses that the kids receive. From what I know there's approx 60-65 students awarded the scholarship here in Ontario.

The biggest item that contributes to the student progressing on is $$$$. Flying once a month every month is a huge investment to make that most of these kids cannot commit to. Although the League does award "Advanced Flying Schloarships"; (I can't recall if it's 300$ or 500$, it's been too long) for those cadets that apply for it; that money doesn't go very far.

[MichaelP]

Of the class of 12, there are 6 presently attending Sault, 1 in Oshawa at Durham, and 1 flying leisurly. That's better odd than the norm.

I think the better odds than normal is probably because you gave them the benefit of your own encouragement and enthusiasm. 'Sounds like you did a good job.

The biggest item that contributes to the student progressing on is $$$$.

In Canada where the flying rates are half the cost of Britain it is still as expensive for Canadians to fly as it is for their British counterparts.

But flying almost always requires you to give something up... For me I got rid of the car, I took the train, the bus, and I walked... I walked lots! I learned to fly when I was 19 and got my licence at 20.

My Air Cadet experience was unfortunate... In Montreal all they could do was give us drill lessons and a little groundschool. I was already better read than the groundschool they gave.
The summer camp was at Bagotville, and if we were lucky we'd get a ride in the back of an Otter or something.
I never went to summer camp, it was not within my reach.
I won my school's science fair competition with aircraft designs of my own, a windtunnel, and model aircraft. The air cadets rewarded me with a picture of the Montreal Expos! Give me something aviation please!
I am glad that the situation has improved for many Canadian kids here.

In England I was pleased to see the ATC Cadets get some flying in every year, they were all entitled to some time in a Chipmunk and a Sedburgh or T31 Cadet glider. It seemed a better deal than I had in Montreal.
While my brother did his CPL at Laurentide at the cost of UI, I paid double at Exeter in England.