High oil takes toll on WestJet

[tonysoprano]

Whiteguy.
Just prior to CCAA a rampy in YYZ was boasting that he made 100k. Yes it took some overtime but I think the fact that it was do-able says much about the situation at that time. What about FAs making 60-70k a year? Is that possible at any other airline? AC has got to get these costs under control.

Amateur.
The apples and oranges thing is taken out of context. It is not meant to belittle WJ. In fact, you should be happy you don't have the model that AC has in so many ways. Those of us "stuck" with it are happy just the same but we do have more challenges. Walking out in 09 will not ruin anything. But it probably will be a waste of time.

CanadaEh.
Ok, if I understand you correctly then we should also compare the results of Via Rail with that of WJ and AC and heck while we're at it, why don't we see how McDonald's compares. No doubt, AC and WJ are in the business of making money. But the tools we use and the rules we use are very different. I'm not trying to belittle WJ. On the contrary. I can only suggest that if WJ had the "problems" AC has then we could call it the same bowl of fruit. You're oversimplifying this thing because WJ performs well so that comparing it to any other company is "fun". Gives your ego a boost and perhaps even the oppurtunity to belittle the competition, right? Ya. You're missing some very important details in how that performance is achieved. WJ has the advantage of being a relatively new kid on the block and has some new, great ideas that give it enormous advatages, but it's certainly not what AC aspires to be. For AC to be a WJ we would have to shreink our size, get rid of all our different types of airplanes, get rid of unions, stop flying overseas, stop serving hot meals, stop giving out aeroplan rewards, get rid of a wealth of benefits and pension plan, get rid of business lounges, etc, etc, etc. Ain't going to happen, nor do we want it to bro. At the same time nor does WJ aspire to be AC, right? Apples and oranges. If and when we can compare it apples to apples, WJ's present performance might be a little more difficult to achieve. I don't see how this is a difficult concept. Have a read at what Whiteguy wrote. That's it for me, I'm going to go take a gravol.

[aroundthewing]

Whiteguy.
Just prior to CCAA a rampy in YYZ was boasting that he made 100k. Yes it took some overtime but I think the fact that it was do-able says much about the situation at that time.

Tony, no rampy has made $100k working only at Air Canada. He's lying to you or baiting you! Even $80k is unreachable with max O/T. Tony....reality check!

[tonysoprano]

Many times we can only base our "facts" upon the rumors we hear. The rumor, at the time , seemed credible because it came from the ramp and they seemed to gloat about it, very proudly. And maybe you didn't understand the fact that this happened prior to CCAA, many moons ago. The dollar value doesn't really matter. What matters is that AC has been paying salaries, catering contracts, aircraft leases etc, etc, way beyond the price it could ever afford. Couple that with bad management and you have a recipe for failure. That needs to change. Now let's let the good WJ people get back to their post regarding their stock.

[aroundthewing]

Many times we can only base our "facts" upon the rumors we hear.

Big mistake big guy!! Pre CCAA or not, it didn't happen!

[tonysoprano]

You (they) were overpaid. Period. And I still believe what I heard from so many.

[427wedge]

Many times we can only base our "facts" upon the rumors we hear.

Big mistake big guy!! Pre CCAA or not, it didn't happen!

Bullshite! I am ex-IAMshop steward and the years that I was there the top earner every year was?
You guessed it rampies! There was some coordinated sick calling required but they, to paraphrase Larry the cable guy, "Got 'er dun!!"

[aroundthewing]

Bullshite! I am ex-IAMshop steward and the years that I was there the top earner every year was?
You guessed it rampies! There was some coordinated sick calling required but they, to paraphrase Larry the cable guy, "Got 'er dun!!"

Another bitter AC person.

[THEICEMAN]

And try to get a high school student to do that work in Alberta for $8/hr!! LOL!! Do some research.
Get your facts straight champ!

Wow you didn't get the point did you! Doesn't matter if it's 8,9,10$ an hour, they need more junior/ student rampies then senior $$$ rampies.

The fact of the matter is, that AC has a less then 1% profit margin! I won't accept fuel has the main excuse since other operators have found ways to make better profits. It starts by getting rid of those 50,60,70, whatever $$ rampies & FAs that are overpaid.
I don't get it....Why should an FA / rampy make so much? Anybody can put on a fake smile, serve coffee and point towards the emergency exits. Meanwhile a pilot has to pay 40K for training, study hard, practise hard, suffer & get what......33.3k to start ?


A company has got to make money....over-paying low skill workers doesn't help. I understand that the Unions create barriers. But the skilled people deserve better salaries, not the low skill ones!
This reason probably explains why pilots can get the raise they want at AC...." sorry, we can't pay you anymore, the flight attendants want more money"..

I don't care what high school students get in Alberta. I picked 8$ at random.....I am more concerned about what goes on nationally. I have never been to Alberta & don't plan on going soon!

[aroundthewing]

And try to get a high school student to do that work in Alberta for $8/hr!! LOL!! Do some research.
Get your facts straight champ!

Wow you didn't get the point did you! Doesn't matter if it's 8,9,10$ an hour, they need more junior/ student rampies then senior $$$ rampies.

Meanwhile a pilot has to pay 40K for training, study hard, practise hard, suffer & get what......33.3k to start ?

Got the point, but now you've changed it!
So what's the top pay scale for you as a pilot or an AC pilot? Not 33.3K.

[THEICEMAN]

AC pilot wages should not be relative to rampies, CSA nor FAs wages. They should be compared to other legacy/national carriers wages...
I strongly believe that skilled workers should be paid way more then unskilled workers.

It's like saying an experinced nurse or janitor should be paid more then a junior doctor at the hospital. Keep in mind, I have no clue how the medical system works.....but it's still does not make sense!

[aroundthewing]

And try to get a high school student to do that work in Alberta for $8/hr!! LOL!! Do some research.
Get your facts straight champ!

It starts by getting rid of those 50,60,70, whatever $$ rampies & FAs that are overpaid.
I don't get it....Why should an FA / rampy make so much? Anybody can put on a fake smile, serve coffee and point towards the emergency exits. Meanwhile a pilot has to pay 40K for training, study hard, practise hard, suffer & get what......33.3k to start ?

It's hard to discuss ego driven idiotic statements like yours. If a person wants work as much o/t as allowed to increase the salary...so what? Contract ground workers have made over $55k working o/t. So what? Laborers at the oil patch have made $100k/year working lots of o/t. So what? A pilot starts off underpaid. Too low. I agree. But ends up a fair bit higher in time. I don't know what that time frame is. You tell me.

And try to get a high school student to do that work in Alberta for $8/hr!! LOL!! Do some research.
Get your facts straight champ!

I understand that the Unions create barriers.

I heard that if senior pilots volunteered to lower their income, that junior pilots would get a raise, but these "union barriers" you speak of prevent that. Are you one of those union barriers?

You (they) were overpaid. Period. And I still believe what I heard from so many.

Tony, don't be so gullible! Or are you trying to be?


You and Tony are basing your wage argument on unfounded rumours and stories for no other reason than to mislead people. Why? No rampie makes or has made $100k at AC only! And that ex-shop steward fella'....probably works in the garage!

[aroundthewing]

AC pilot wages should not be relative to rampies, CSA nor FAs wages. They should be compared to other legacy/national carriers wages...
I strongly believe that skilled workers should be paid way more then unskilled workers.

I would say a seasoned pilot makes about at least $180K/yr more than a new rampie. What do you classify as "skilled"?

[THEICEMAN]

What about the average?

What do you classify as "skilled"?

Must I really answer that!

[aroundthewing]

What about the average?

With 35%+ p/t .......you do the math since you already think you know the answer.

What do you classify as "skilled"?

Must I really answer that!

Sure, why not? Since you seem to think that f/as' are not skilled, it would be interesting where your ego places other staff!

[THEICEMAN]

oh c'mon cut the rhetoric.....

Examples of high skill jobs:
-Pilots
-Engineers
-AME
-market planners
-management
-People who studied hard to get an education or some kind of special training, etc....

Examples of low skill jobs:
-F/As (Also known as people that just serve cookies, smile, point to emergency exits & think that they are super important. Also known as people who keep quoting transport Canada regulation without knowing what the heck the abbreviation "CARS" means.)
-Rampies (doesn't take an MBA to do that job!)
-CSA (I worked as a CSA part time last year. Can be a very stressfull job, but does not require special training)
-Cleaners (last I checked, Universities still don't offer an undergrad degree in janitorial work! When will they learn? )
-Jobs that only require a high school degree with no special ttraining at all. The positions that anybody can attain, so long as you don't have a criminal record!


I don't want to discuss this issue any further! I can agree that senior people shoulld make 40-50K...but anything higher is crazy!
The days of TCA are over & AC has shareholders to report to now. Profit margins that are <1% is not what the company aims for.

Remember that when times get bad, <1% profit margins are going to turn into -5%. If or when that happens, jobs are going to get cut & wages are going down!

[aroundthewing]

oh c'mon cut the rhetoric.....


I don't want to discuss this issue any further! I can agree that senior people shoulld make 40-50K...but anything higher is crazy!

Cheers!

[Four1oh]

ok then, back on topic. I think what's really going on has nothing to do with high oil, and everything to do with a slow moving stock market crash. The shizzle is hitting the nizzle out there. The stock market is angry today, my friends...

[sanjet]

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/1801 ... alyst.html

Canada's airline industry looks set to finally join the downturn in the United States, an analyst said on Friday as he cut his outlook on the country's major carriers, Air Canada and WestJet Airlines Ltd .