Is flight training in crisis...

[Dyski]

Why is it getting so hard to get an experienced flight instructor ??!!! No offense to anyone but shouldn't flight instruction be limited to pilots with some real flying experience ??!!
I might sound bitter but it is becoming almost impossible to find a class 2 or higher instructor in the GTA to teach CPL and Multi-IFR.

Anyone in the YHM area would like to freelance during the summer season??!! PM please

Dyski

[Grey_Wolf]

Anyone in the YHM area would like to freelance during the summer season??!! PM please

If you don't mind the drive, head up to YKF, you'll find class 2s there

[Cat Driver]

No offense to anyone but shouldn't flight instruction be limited to pilots with some real flying experience ??!!

Pilots with real flying experience won't work for peanuts.

[MichaelP]

Pilots with real flying experience won't work for peanuts.

I beg your pardon!
I've worked for peanuts the whole of my 30 odd years in this business, does that count as experience...
I should be well and truly certified I suppose, but then my standard of living would go up if I lived in an assylum!

I was lucky when I learned to fly because the old men that did the teaching were experienced in many types of aircraft, many of them had guns fitted too... They were Spitfires and Hurricanes, Wimpeys, and Stirlings.
Today there are few old men with real experience teaching; people die you know!

Even 34 years ago they were few instructors younger than 30 teaching in British flying clubs because there was no money, and the airlines weren't hiring...
Then Margaret changed it all!

I think that one factor that has changed here is that there are so few retired and semi retired experienced pilots prepared to pass on their knowledge to the new generation.
It's why we see so many poor habits* and not ideal 'new' ways of doing things creeping into flight training.
There was nothing wrong with the way I and many others learned to fly in the past, so why change it?

* Things like turning the alternator off and on during the run-up!
* The non-standard forms of HASELL, and HALT, what's that?

The old teaching the young is not limited to flying... I remember an old man at BAC using the English wheel to fashion spares for Viscounts and the like, he was an artist with sheet metal but with no apprentice there to benefit from the skills and knowledge this man had before he retired.

Perhaps it's the complain and misery society prevalent in Canada... I see the younger and older 'Air Canada' pilots moaning in the coffee shop over pay and conditions... They've made it and are not happy... They retire and if they fly they enter into their own sphere and fail to give.
But miserable people are not giving people.

Of course the pilots with real experience have to go through the same rigmarole as the 200 hour CPL holders, and be Class fours under Class twos with comparatively little experience, and many can't be bothered.

[shamrock104]

I also believe that many have moved on to bigger and better things. Its really difficult to book flights with Instructors here in Calgary because the city is so prosperous. Its to the point where I want to purchase my own Cessna so I dont have the hassles of checkouts and waiting for aircraft. Most schools dont even offer base salaries so its the younger inexperienced Instructors who are in these positions.

[Nappy]

I know for myself it is the mediocre pay for the stupid amount of responsibility. I mean, right now I am making a confortable amount, got very lucky, and I am going for my class 2... Hopefully next few months. But wether or not I am going to make a life career in it depends how the work conditions go... I mean, send a student solo, not paid, show up and student cancels because of sickness, not paid, if a certain school gives you 300$ a month, then they are expecting you to improve their own programs for no extra pay, but only the 'privilege' of flying. One way to change this is for instructors around Canada to say no to ****** work conditions and demand more. Not pay for not working, but pay based on amount of responsibility and risk. Even now work conditions are improving, but still... I think improve work conditions and a pay scale that is comprable for the work instructors need to put in and you will have instructors going on for more than required hours to get on pacific coastal or sunwest...

But inversely, work quality from instructors need to be up to standard

[Cat Driver]

You made some good points MichaelP.

I am hoping to get the time to finish my Cub so I can finally after all these years wanting to do flight training be able to do so.

Unfortunately I will not be able to teach people towards the PPL but at least I will be able to re teach some.

By the way I also learned to teach in an earlier era.

[Lurch]

I dispute this whole concept of money being the reason, and you don't have to search very far on this forum to see the real problem.

Check out the employment forum and you will see just one example. Kids get their licence now what? do they go north and sweat it out throwing bags and hoping to sit right seat for three years before getting to move up or do they stay in the south and fly around the circuit for a year before they can move on?

Instructing isn't for everyone unfortunitly anyone can become one. I have seen numerous instructors hating their job only 50 hours into their Class IV, Heck I've seen them before they even complete the rating. They then don't care for their job and it transfers over to the students who also come on here and complain about their instructor. How can somebody be in the circuit and still have no clue about spins or how to maintain centerline? Is this the students fault or the instructors?

Would paying twice as much change this? No, It just means more of these "walking baggage" will become instructors. The key is how do we weed out the useless before they get into the right seat, and then how do we keep the instructors who want to be there?

Rant Over

Lurch

[MichaelP]

Perhaps the regulations should take account of a person's past experience and give credit where credit is due towards the Instructor Rating so that good people who have had a career in flying can be bothered to go through the rigmarole to pass on the benefits of their knowledge.

[Cat Driver]

Would paying twice as much change this? No, It just means more of these "walking baggage" will become instructors. The key is how do we weed out the useless before they get into the right seat, and then how do we keep the instructors who want to be there?

TC Guy??

[Dyski]

Thanks for the reply everyone..

The real dilama is that I am paying $45/hour of my hard work and sweat and I would like to see results for it . Nothing is wrong with a class 4 teaching to solo level or even PPL. But for a CPL or multi-IFR you need an experienced IFR rated pilot with some real IFR experience not someone with 240 hours and little knowledge to pass on!!

For example,I believe that I know how to operate VORs/ADFs and what is related to them(Holds,approaches,navigation,interceptions),of course from self-study and practice on sims at home (I know nothing fancy but it helps prepare for the real thing in the plane and saves $$), but when my instructor is unsure of how to use the damn VOR and I have to correct him/her then I have the right to be pissed off because for #1-My hard earned dollars are being wasted and #2-I feel unsafe with him/her and being used to put few lines on their logbooks!!..

I am serious about my training and have committed and sacrificed enough to make the $$ for it and the last thing I want to see is that I am being used!!

I know that this is not only happening in the GTA but all over Canada but I think TC should step in and correct the situation here because as flight training quality degrade we do/will/might see more unnecessary accidents happing to innocent students (Read TC safety letter and you will see what I mean)...

To all instructors,Please take your job seriously,Prepare your lessons to the best you can before the flight so you don't waste time in the plane,help you students ,be Professional and remember that it is not only hours that count,your name will too!!!

Dyski

[Lurch]

Well dysky the answer is actually quite simple for for situation. You don't require a flight destructor for your Group1. Go out there and find yourself a experianced pilot and he can do your IFR training just be prepared to pay for his experiance.

CARs 425.21

(9) A person who conducts flight training toward the issuance of an instrument rating shall be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, have an instrument rating and:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(a) have a flight instructor rating; or
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(b) have experience of not less than 500 hours pilot‑in‑command flight time, of which:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) not less than 100 hours shall be on the applicable aircraft group, and
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(ii) in the case of Group I aircraft, not less than 10 hours shall be on the type of multi-engine aeroplane used for the training.
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

[cessnafloatflyer]

DYSKI-

Don't forget that you are the customer buying a service. If you don't like the service you are getting talk to the CFI, then go shop somewhere else.

It is very true though that your $45 per hour translates into $20 per hour (or thereabout) to the instructor for Fight time. So if i have 3000 hours+, two childeren and a wife, how am i supposed to earn a living for that? Therefore you have inexperienced pilots teaching, building time on your dollar and usually moving on ASAP.

Pay more and shop arround, you are the customer and you have to find better service.

CFF

[Nappy]

cessnafloatflyer definitely has a point here.... and you can see also some posts on the job ads page that are starting to stress more and more they want professinal competent flight instructors who will do good jobs.... More and more I hear students and other instructors seeing alot of class 4s and 3s just doing it for the hours and move up after with no consideration for the training... And MichealIP is right, instructors who have flying experience should teach, and TC should definitely be looking into that. I mean, what other business hire teachers for a very specialized program who can have potentially as little as 230 hours of practical experience? and about 150-160 hours of ground lessons? completely upside down

[Cat Driver]

And MichealIP is right, instructors who have flying experience should teach, and TC should definitely be looking into that.

TC doesen't give a fu.k about the flight training industry, they only care about their own secure unaccountable jobs.

As long as TC is run by moral degenerates nothing will change.

[MichaelP]

Poor ., there's no-one more anti TC than him... and I do understand it... But what are we to do???

TC also stands for Tasty Crumpet, so there's a better conatation to those letters, especially to an Englishman!

Yes, the flight training industry is upside down (especially when I had my Class 2 Aerobatic Instructor Rating), oops, that's off topic...
It is true that there's few people with experience and maturity to give guidance to the young class four instructors we have to work with.

At one school the instructors are required to take a two flight checkout in a common aeroplane.... because the Class One CFI had trouble flying it having only flown one make of aircraft before.
IMHO a Class 1 instructor and even a Class 2 instructor should be able to fly any aeroplane within the bounds of the licence, or at least be able to estimate its flying characteristics and performance.
Instructors who have only ever flown Cessna 150/152/172 aircraft, or only PA28's should not be given a Class 2 instructor rating.
They should perhaps be tested in an aeroplane they have never flown before, having read the pilots notes/POH/AFM.
A Class 2 instructor supervises Class 4 instructors who might be flying something the Class 2 does not understand. Is that wise?

I've seen instructors teaching the Instrument Rating in the Cessna 185 the customer owns.
The instructors had never flown a tailwheel and there they were logging PIC time in it!

I used to hate it in the old days when I would teach people to fly tailwheel aeroplanes and they were logging PIC time and I logged nothing... They could go elsewhere and present their logbooks with all this PIC time and even though I had not sent them solo they could hoodwink a naive person into letting them fly their aircraft.
One person who did this, died doing it. Not because she couldn't land it, but because her attitude and decision making was not up to standard.

[shamrock104]

Whats up with the limeys hijacking this post???????????????

[MichaelP]

If it was a Canadian calling me a Limey, I'd say he believed in Manifest Destiny since that is an American term for an Englishman.

As for an Irishman, I don't know what to say, but I suppose in those olden days an Irishman would be likely to be impressed and so earn the term himself!

[shamrock104]

Too funny Michael, I am maybe missing Fairoaks and White Waltham too much.

[MichaelP]

I used to call it Snoboaks!
I was a member of WLAC for a time and kept a Condor in their hangar, a much batter place and yes, I miss the humour and the funny aeroplanes too.
Are you still heading West soon?

[Cat Driver]

Poor .,

Not really I'm doing just fine.

there's no-one more anti TC than him...

Like all good teachers I can not let the readers of this forum believe that statement, so please read this carefully.

I would very much doubt that there is anyone in aviation more pro TC than I am.

I am anti TC employees who have lost track of why they are working for TC...it is the thug mentality that I abhor. As long as there are thugs working for TC I shall continue to advise the young people to hold them in contempt, as I do.

Now I'm betting that each and everyone who have been around flight training in the Pacific Region can think of at least one thug that they know masquerading as a TC inspector.

One thug is to many and brings contempt on those who do not operate that way.

But what are we to do???

That is a difficult question if you are dependent on flight training for a living, therefore you are pretty well forced to evade them or pretend you are towing the line. Otherwise you risk losing everything you have.

I am fortunate in that there is no more they can do to me, which leaves me free to expose those who are thugs....

Speaking of thugs, I'm looking forward to meeting J.D. again one of these days as I would like to tell him in public what he can do to himself.

[MichaelP]

I would very much doubt that there is anyone in aviation more pro TC than I am.

All right then, write something good about TC on here

[Cat Driver]

All right then, write something good about TC on here

On what subject?

[l_reason]

$100/h for a great instructor is a far better deal then $45/h for a poor one. The most important lessons are the first ones. I only wish the guy that taught me “Attitudes and Movements” had 1000 hours.

[Cat Driver]

$100/h for a great instructor is a far better deal then $45/h for a poor one. The most important lessons are the first ones. I only wish the guy that taught me “Attitudes and Movements” had 1000 hours.

Bingo::::

Generally speaking instructors do not realize the importance of this lesson because their heads are so full of other less important issues.

The lesson of " attitudes and movements " is the corner stone of airplane handling.....therefore that lesson is worth $1000.00, properly taught and understood by the student.