Inglish Proficcincey Exam???

[MichaelP]

I don't tend to be "red-neck" about anything, though being "Roast Beef" I do have the occasional laugh over a French joke.

But the situation with Quebec is no joke.
In aviation there can be no distinct society, we all have to communicate in one language where-ever we are.

In my past I have flown in France many times, and I was not beyond speaking in French on the radio with my position and intentions. It was not difficult as I had learned French in High School in Montreal.

I was shocked when I had to buy a tyre for the nosewheel on the Wassmer Pacific... No-one at Toussus Le Noble would speak English and so I spoke French... Then there was the problem of paying for it and how... I spoke to the company manager on the phone, a little bit of an argument... Then I realised afterwards I'd had my argument in French on the phone!
That was the first time I'd used the French I'd learned in Canada.

But the language spoken in Quebec is not the language we learned at school.
It is hard to understand Quebecois.

Quebec should not try to impose its distinctiveness on the global community.
If the Chinese with a large percentage of the World's population have to speak English in the air, the Quebecois should do likewise.

[Cat Driver]

I am not sure about this so could someone answer it for me?

Can you buy aviation maps in Canada that have everything printed in French on the maps?

[MichaelP]

I remember when French aviation maps went from heights in metres back to feet

[Grey_Wolf]

I am not sure about this so could someone answer it for me?

Can you buy aviation maps in Canada that have everything printed in French on the maps?

Yup a few years ago (2004-05ish?), I had mistakenly picked up a Montreal VNC & VTA all in french. No worries for me, since I am bilingual, but a buddy wanted to borrow them .... he had to dig up some of the terms in the CFS to understand what was printed.

And if I'm not mistaken, on VNC's near the Ottawa Area, some info is printed in both languages.

[Cat Driver]

I was wondering if a unilingual French pilot could buy maps printed in French for all of Canada?

[MichaelP]

I have just spoken to the ever helpful Jacquie at Aviation World...
Intersting stuff.

The Montreal VNC is available in French, but not the others. As Nav Canada is a private corporation why would they print maps for Canada in French to sell a few if any?
If it was a government department then the maps would probably all be printed in both languages at the expense of the taxpayer with the usual wastage.

A lot of the charts are in short supply or not available at all at the moment.
Since they began to print them in Spain there have been supply problems.

[Grey_Wolf]

I have just spoken to the ever helpful Jacquie at Aviation World...
Intersting stuff.

The Montreal VNC is available in French, but not the others. As Nav Canada is a private corporation why would they print maps for Canada in French to sell a few if any?
If it was a government department then the maps would probably all be printed in both languages at the expense of the taxpayer with the usual wastage.

A lot of the charts are in short supply or not available at all at the moment.
Since they began to print them in Spain there have been supply problems.

Hmmm .......

I just emailed Nav Canada about the topic before I read this post, it'll be interesting to see what gets back.
MichaealP, makes sense that they wouldn't but for fun I'll ask if they're able to do so, and if so, if there are any "additional fees" to do so

[Cat Driver]

The point I am trying to make is the inequality of support for the French pilots in Canada.

As I recall it is a requirement for a pilot to have all necessary charts with him to fly in any given area of Canada.

Therefore if a French Canadian pilot who holds a Canadian Pilot License that was issued based on said pilot being 100% unilingulal and that pilot wants to fly a trip across Canada how is that pilot supposed to read charts in a language the pilot does not understand?

[Hedley]

If the Chinese with a large percentage of the World's population have to speak English in the air, the Quebecois should do likewise.

ummmm ... I don't think you "get it".

Quebec is a different country than Canada.

[Grey_Wolf]

Well Cat .... in the front of the CFS there's a index showing terms and symbols in both languages

The poor french-pilot would have a heck of time sorting through the list and then "translating" them

[MichaelP]

The Quebeceur pilote with only Quebecois to communicate in should stay in Quebec... I suppose.
Every other nationality will make the effort to speak in English in international airspace.

Think of Switzerland, you only got a limited licence if you only spoke your local language, but a full one if you had a good understanding of English.
With four official languages in Switzerland they went to a fifth for aviation communication, English.
I was surprised that first trip in 1977 to see this.

The World progresses, and the English language we speak today is not the English of the Middle Ages.
The French spoken in France is not the old language spoken in Quebec!

There are strong moves in this modern World to turn the clock back four or five hundred years, Islam would do that, especially to women!
Quebec wants to stay in its past... but with multi-culturalism and global movements of people and custom the World will move on.
Quebec imported Haitians who speak their own version of French, this will alter Quebecois in time, and they bring their own culture too, which will add colour to Quebec's heritage.
Future generations will all be coffee coloured and the culture we know today will be in the past as is the Roman culture, and the feudal cultures of old.
You can't stop the evolution of the World's culture.

If Star Trek is to be believed, the whole Universe will be speaking English in the future

[Grey_Wolf]

FYI ... (not like it's going to surprise anybody ...)

NavCanada's representative called me back and left a message; in summary:

- They do not provide French VNC outside the Quebec Area

- One could get one done for other regions, however, one would have to pay the "printing template" set-up and other fees
(They estimated the cost of 1 map at over 500$ !!!); the reasoning is due to the bulk printing as MichaelP mentionned

[MichaelP]

Isn't it worth $500 for a Quebecois to make a point.
I'm sure there's government grants for such things

I'm also sure that Quebec can sue the Federal Government over the issue, receive another big payment from the rest of Canada, and force Nav Canada to print its maps in French as the other official language, it would only cost the rest of Canada money and a few more trees...
The Spanish printers wouldn't mind this time as they make money out of it.

[Louis]

Hello,

I didn't even know there were French-only versions of the VNC and VTA. Mine are bilingual and I'm fine with that.

Cat, why are you trying to come up with a wacky scenario where Navcanada has to provide services or products in French in a situation where it makes no sense?

MichaelP, Quebec French is not Créole. Put an European French speaker in a room with a Quebecer and they'll both understand each other without difficulty unless one of them resorts to deliberately large amounts of argot or joual.

The World progresses, and the English language we speak today is not the English of the Middle Ages.
The French spoken in France is not the old language spoken in Quebec!

The language spoken in Quebec is not so much old as it is different. Just like American, Canadian and British English are.

There are strong moves in this modern World to turn the clock back four or five hundred years, Islam would do that, especially to women!
Quebec wants to stay in its past... but with multi-culturalism and global movements of people and custom the World will move on.

What Quebec wants is to be able to keep its French culture healthy while being surrounded by an English one (with an approximate 240M:7M population ratio). Keeping this culture healthy requires being open to the world, forward-looking, and having an environment that enables us to do so.

In case such a statement is triggered by Quebec's "Je me souviens" motto, I invite you to look at the following:

Gagnon's interpretation is probably very close to Taché's intentions. In designing the decoration of the Parliament Building, Taché wanted to render homage to the men and women who marked the history of Québec. There is probably no need to delve deeper into the matter. This entire building is a monument dedicated to the history of Québec and, through the motto, Taché sought simply to express in a few words what he planned to immortalize in stone, wood and bronze.

Future generations will all be coffee coloured and the culture we know today will be in the past as is the Roman culture, and the feudal cultures of old.
You can't stop the evolution of the World's culture.

If Star Trek is to be believed, the whole Universe will be speaking English in the future

You're probably right about the first part, but I beg to differ about the second one. Although I believe we both know enough about Star Trek not to go any further as to why.

Now, on a more serious note: The reason I posted in this discussion was to try and ensure that French pilots in this country, many of whom also happen to speak English at a level that is considered high enough by ICAO standards, are not getting ripped off by having to take and pay for a test that native English speakers generally won't have to bother with. (Although it could be argued the reverse situation is also possible should an English speaker want the French language proficiency rating added to its licence.)

I have gotten some answers and it seems that there will be no problems if you stay within Canada because the requirement is for either English or French, but what happens if you want to fly abroad remains unclear as of writing this. There apparently is a procedure (with a cutoff date in March) for current pilots to get the other langage rating on their licence at no cost by proving their bilingualism to Transport Canada.

Is it possible to have a discussion on Avcanada about linguistic issues without the thread degenerating? I'd like to think so.

Goodbye,

Louis

[xlent]

Maybe this means we won't have to listen to French speaking pilots/controllers when we go to YUL...sorry guys, but it's annoying for those of us who aren't fluent

[TC Guy]

I have gotten some answers and it seems that there will be no problems if you stay within Canada because the requirement is for either English or French, but what happens if you want to fly abroad remains unclear as of writing this. There apparently is a procedure (with a cutoff date in March) for current pilots to get the other langage rating on their licence at no cost by proving their bilingualism to Transport Canada.

I just want it to be very clear here. This is an ICAO standard. Canada is going to impliment this language requirement as Ottawa see fit, but as far as the English vs French -- there is no issue. ICAO wants the language standard. It is an international standard. I have no idea what countries will accept the Canadian French or English level proficiency as acceptable to hold their license, or fly in their country. This will be sorted out in due time.

Please understand -- this is certainly NOT an English Canada vs French Canada issue.

-Guy

[Hedley]

This is an ICAO standard

Since when does that matter? When Transport trots
out the "we have to do this because big bad ICAO says
we have to", it is an insult to our intelligence.

Transport reneges on it's ICAO obligations as a signatory
all the time.

[2R]

EE bye gum lad .wot they sprout from ICAO is not proper English ,Ask anyfolk round ere ,bleediong foreigners finking they know wots wot ,none of um know how to speek the Queens unglish .And they do not like it up em !!!!!

[MichaelP]

Although it could be argued the reverse situation is also possible should an English speaker want the French language proficiency rating added to its licence.

Is there such a thing?, and why bother when French doesn't make the top ten World languages?
I write that even though I spoke French on the radio in France... I could not understand the accented Quebecois French at St Hubert however!

The whole ICAO point is that English fluency be established for everyone operating in international airspace with no exceptions for Mandarin, German, Mongolian, Geordie, or French!

A Quebecois operating outside of Quebec should be aviation fluent in English.
Airlines operating into North America should perhaps consider changing their routes to avoid Quebec airspace if that province wishes to stay distinct to the rest of the World!

[Louis]

Hello,

The whole ICAO point is that English fluency be established for everyone operating in international airspace with no exceptions for Mandarin, German, Mongolian, Geordie, or French!

A Quebecois operating outside of Quebec should be aviation fluent in English.

At the risk of repeating myself: I agree.

The issue is for bilingual Quebecers not to be at a disadvantage when it comes to acquiring the English rating. As in having an extra expense for the sole reason that they decided to correspond with Transport Canada in French, which we have the right to do.

I am fully aware that few, if any English Canadians will want or need to add the French rating on their licence, but if there's going to be something put in place, say, free first LPR exam, it might as well work both ways.

I can't expect the FAA or any other CAA to accept a French language rated pilot in their airspace, unless its one of their official languages as well.

The only place where you could go from Canada to another country on a French LPR only is if you fly in to Saint-Pierre and Miquelon. Everywhere else, you will need an English rating.

Goodbye,

Louis

[frac]

Does that mean that every pilot who's file with TC is checked as "French" will have to pay to add English proficiency to its licence?!?
(Say, in the "unlikely" case that I would like to fly outside of Quebec and the Ottawa region in something other than a NORDO plane...)

Does anyone know? TC Guy?

Goodbye,

Louis

LPR is only required for international flying, you will not require an English LPR to fly within Canadian Domestic Airspace.
You can obtain an English LPR for free on your Canadian License if you ask for it before march 5, 2008.
I just got my French LPR endorsed on my Canadian CPL in order to fly in France at "French Only" designated airfields.

The contact I got for the French LPR test was Marthe Yaro in Ottawa (HQ)
I also got Patrick Tardif in HQ as a secondary contact for the procedure.

If you ask for the LPR after March, you will probably have to pay a fee.

Regards
Marc-Olivier

[frac]

The whole ICAO point is that English fluency be established for everyone operating in international airspace with no exceptions for Mandarin, German, Mongolian, Geordie, or French!

Not necessarily English:

As of march 5 2008, aeroplane, airship, helicopter and powered lift pilots....shall demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for radiotelephony communications to the level specified in the language proficiency requirements in Appendix 1.

I live in France and there are a couple of Airfields where the language used for radiotelephony communication is French. This is the reason I asked TC to add a French LPR to my Canadian CPL. I agree that most of the time, English proficiency will be enough but it might restrict access to certain airports.

The issue is for bilingual Quebecers not to be at a disadvantage when it comes to acquiring the English rating. As in having an extra expense for the sole reason that they decided to correspond with Transport Canada in French, which we have the right to do.

It is free if you ask for it before March 5

The only place where you could go from Canada to another country on a French LPR only is if you fly in to Saint-Pierre and Miquelon. Everywhere else, you will need an English rating.

Don't forget that there is an ICAO Resolution (A36-11) that might extend the delay for compliance to 2011 for many countries.

Regards,

Marc-Olivier

[Kelowna Pilot]

In many parts of the world, people are trilingual...

In Montreal most are bilingual...

Go to western Canada, however, and many are hardly even unilingual....

I'm sorry, but I have I have no problem French being considered an acceptable language...

Besides, on a practical level, show me a francophone pilot who would venture out of Quebec airspace who can't understand English. No would do it.

For those who subscribe to the "Quebec is ramming French down our throats" school of thought, I'd like you to get a sense of the French perspective.

Go to the libary and read "The Black of Book of English Canada" or "White N*ggers of America".

[Cat Driver]

Go to western Canada, however, and many are hardly even unilingual...

If that does not do the trick try some of Newfoundlands out ports, even us Newfs can't understand them.

[Kelowna Pilot]

If that does not do the trick try some of Newfoundlands out ports, even us Newfs can't understand them.

Be careful what you wish for, Cat.

Your friends at TC will probably add Newfs to the lists of 'non-native English speakers' just to personally spite you and pull your chain even though I think most Newfs are ethnically English and Scottish