Yeh, I reason, if it takes any longer you are either a slow learner or you are getting piss poor instruction...it's only another airplane.
The flying industry has to make it look difficult to fleece the sheep.
Aircraft Rentals
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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North of You
- Rank 3
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- Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:21 pm
- Location: On the Grassy Knoll, Fat Dumb and Happy
Re: Aircraft Rentals
The day I pay almost $400 to get checked out on a 172s is the day when I know I have too much money. Until that day......costermonger wrote:@ North of You - I can only speak for one of the rental places in YKF, but the requirement for a full COT flight is indeed insurance mandated. Whoever you spoke to where I work wasn't feeding you a line of BS.
“Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.” My Father
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.” My Father
Re: Aircraft Rentals
Could any one tell where I can find all the "Rules" for renting and A/C. I see 401.28 says a private pilot cannot receive money but where does it say how an A/C must be registered
It says a Private Pilot, so could a commercial pilot rent there A/C or a Non pilot to a Licenced pilot. I dont see the rules that state that, im sure they are there i just cant find them. I am looking specifically for something that says the A/C must be run under an FTU or 703 with an OC to rent an A/C even if it is not for profit. I have seen a flying club that has a plane they rent under private but they own it and they say thats the kicker, could it also be done with a leased plane?? is this any of it legal at all???
It says a Private Pilot, so could a commercial pilot rent there A/C or a Non pilot to a Licenced pilot. I dont see the rules that state that, im sure they are there i just cant find them. I am looking specifically for something that says the A/C must be run under an FTU or 703 with an OC to rent an A/C even if it is not for profit. I have seen a flying club that has a plane they rent under private but they own it and they say thats the kicker, could it also be done with a leased plane?? is this any of it legal at all???
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
Ronner if you want to buy an airplane to rent it out go ahead, there is no need for an OC to rent airplanes to licensed pilots.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Hornblower
- Rank 7
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- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:58 am
Re: Aircraft Rentals
... as opposed to a catholic yahoo, or a muslim yahoo??Ogee wrote: ... a school run by a complete Jewish yahoo ...
.
Because we all know that the level of yahooism is judged by religious or racial background. Good thing you weren't referring to an aboriginal yahoo, or the mods would be looking at banning you.
Mods whats up??? This ok or what????
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North of You
- Rank 3
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- Location: On the Grassy Knoll, Fat Dumb and Happy
Re: Aircraft Rentals
You know….nobody likes a snitch!Hornblower wrote:... as opposed to a catholic yahoo, or a muslim yahoo??Ogee wrote: ... a school run by a complete Jewish yahoo ...
.
Because we all know that the level of yahooism is judged by religious or racial background. Good thing you weren't referring to an aboriginal yahoo, or the mods would be looking at banning you.
Mods whats up??? This ok or what????
“Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.” My Father
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.” My Father
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Hornblower
- Rank 7
- Posts: 686
- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:58 am
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
It is possible the Jewish yahoo he is referring to operated an air service in Vancouver that made Sonic Blue look first class...he is dead now, killed himself in an airplane.
Therefore it may not be real bigotry, just a way to identify someone well known in the industry.
Therefore it may not be real bigotry, just a way to identify someone well known in the industry.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Hornblower
- Rank 7
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- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:58 am
Re: Aircraft Rentals
It's bigotry nontheless, could've been an arsehole, being jewish had nothing to do with it.
Anyway I'm sure some would be offended.
Of course we know you're not a bigot Cat, you hate everyone (that works in TC management) the same right
Anyway I'm sure some would be offended.
Of course we know you're not a bigot Cat, you hate everyone (that works in TC management) the same right
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
Disliking some individuals in any group who are as.holes is not bigotry hornblower it is just a personal dislike. 
I identify by name those who I have found to be unacceptable in TC.....
I don't like anyone who treats others in an unacceptable manner.
I do agree that identifying an individual who is an as.hole by their religion or race is not really acceptable in society.
I identify by name those who I have found to be unacceptable in TC.....I don't like anyone who treats others in an unacceptable manner.
I do agree that identifying an individual who is an as.hole by their religion or race is not really acceptable in society.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Aircraft Rentals
For Christ's sake, Hornblower. Is that all you can do to make yourself feel important, witchhunts where there were no witches?
The guy ran air services that ripped people off. The way he ran air services killed pilots. He killed himself. He was, ipso facto, a yahoo.
It turns out he was the only Jewish guy in aviation around Vancouver. That helps people who know that to identify who I was talking about. I never thought that it would help those who didn't know to get up backwards on a white horse and go galloping all over the forum looking for attention and claiming to be stamping out bigotry.
You're the one who is a bigot is you are so quick to link Jewishness with being a yahoo.
Would you rather I gave the guys name? He'd dead, for God sake. And he's probably looking down at you and saying "Don't be on my side!"
The guy ran air services that ripped people off. The way he ran air services killed pilots. He killed himself. He was, ipso facto, a yahoo.
It turns out he was the only Jewish guy in aviation around Vancouver. That helps people who know that to identify who I was talking about. I never thought that it would help those who didn't know to get up backwards on a white horse and go galloping all over the forum looking for attention and claiming to be stamping out bigotry.
You're the one who is a bigot is you are so quick to link Jewishness with being a yahoo.
Would you rather I gave the guys name? He'd dead, for God sake. And he's probably looking down at you and saying "Don't be on my side!"
Re: Aircraft Rentals
I think you mean upAnd he's probably looking down at you
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
Hopefully he won't be cold where he should be.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Aircraft Rentals
In our area standard practice is to take you to the practice area, ask you to do a steep turn within PPL parameters, demostrate slow flight, stall and a forced approach. Back to the circuit for one touch and go followed by a full stop. Generally 1.3hrs. Seems anal, but the CFI is on our cases to make sure everyone is safe for insurance.North of You wrote:A question to you instructors out there. (Not trying to hijack this thred) Have about 10k hours and tried to take the kids up for a ride. All the places I went to tried to tell me I need at least 1 ½ to 2 hours to make sure I’m still able to fly a 172. Is this normal now a days? Back in the day if you had the right instructor, a check out could last one circuit. Needless to say, the kids are still waiting for their ride….
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
You do this regardless of the experience of the pilot?In our area standard practice is to take you to the practice area, ask you to do a steep turn within PPL parameters, demostrate slow flight, stall and a forced approach.
What do you consider a steep turn and how accurate do you want it flown?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Aircraft Rentals
Back to the topic. I can tell if I can rent a plane to you during TAXI! If you can't evaluate a renter pilot in ONE circuit.....you shouldn't be an instructor. Any more than two circuits for a higher time driver...and you're milking them.
I'd really like to see the clause in the insurance policy that states a minimum time required for a check out. Or what is to be covered. I call BS on that one.
Or.....are the pilots being turned out by FTUs so frikken bad they actually NEED an hour or two of dual to rent a 172??
I'd really like to see the clause in the insurance policy that states a minimum time required for a check out. Or what is to be covered. I call BS on that one.
Or.....are the pilots being turned out by FTUs so frikken bad they actually NEED an hour or two of dual to rent a 172??
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
Doc, I owned a flying school with six singles, one twin and a R22 helicopter.
There was never any such clause in my insurance.
What makes me laugh is the steep turn thing...fu.k where has the aviation industry gone to...unless they mean a steep turn at fifty feet for ten full turns at 60 degrees of bank.
There was never any such clause in my insurance.
What makes me laugh is the steep turn thing...fu.k where has the aviation industry gone to...unless they mean a steep turn at fifty feet for ten full turns at 60 degrees of bank.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Aircraft Rentals
I don't write the news, I just report it.Cat Driver wrote:You do this regardless of the experience of the pilot?
What do you consider a steep turn and how accurate do you want it flown?
My choices are do as I am told and cover my ass or not and get canned if something goes sideways.
I did say I felt it was anal.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
JAHinYYC, it is more than anal it is taking advantage of people.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Aircraft Rentals
It's instructors building time. Steep turns....my ass!
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Cat Driver
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Re: Aircraft Rentals
What is a steep turn....please, please someone, please tell me.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Aircraft Rentals
I think that buy TC definition it is any turn of more than 30 degrees of bank. This includes the standard PPL/CPL flight test 45 degree bank, and would also cover 10 turns at 50 feet using 60 degrees of bank. Although for the life of me I can't imagine why someone who wants to take thee kids flying would need to do such a thing.
Since I'm here: when I was Instructing, the CFI pretty much left it up to me as to how in depth of a checkout I did on renters. With the application of a little judgement, a good look at the renters logbook/experience it was not hard to come up with something. My main concern was how safe the person would be if they got into the typical trouble areas. (i.e engine failure, approaching slow flight/stall, spiral dive). At the field I worked at, there was(is) a pretty small runway with a tiny non-standard circuit. For some of lower experience who have only used 200' wide runways 5000' long this sometimes needed a few circuits to get right.
Depending on the person, sometimes 1 or two circuits would do. Sometimes it was off to the training area for half an hour. In one case where the persons flight experience was low, and not to recent, I felt a couple flights were required. He agreed. I do not think that going on speck for a 2 hour checkout is a good idea for so many reasons. But I do know you cannot (as seems to be done here) paint every ones quest to rent a plane from the point of view of there own god-like flying skills. From what I have seen, not everyone, regardless of there experience, can jump into a 172 and safely go flying. Lots can, but you have to convince me of it.
Some examples:
Low time PPL with very little recent flying, might take .7 or so. The main thing I look for is handling of an engine failure. They do happen, and I want to be sure that the person can handle it. I don't care too much if it is a picture perfect flight test forced, but I do want to see a safe approach to a landable field. Somtimes low timers do well, sometimes not.
I had one fairly experienced pilot who I initially though would only require a circuit or two, request a trip to the training area. Good on him. It turns out it was the right thing. He made his field alright, but way to fast from diving to it, rather that gliding smoothly to it. A couple more trys with a little direction and he had it. For him the time was worth his while, and he said so.
Another error from a reletivly low time PPL I had was always coming short on the Forced, and then pulling the nose up in an effort to make the field. Did not even realize he was approaching stall untill I called for the overshoot. This fellow took a couple flights. Again after discussing it with him, he agreed.
Another thing to do when renting an aircraft is to be honest with whomever is doing the checkout. Having a logbook would help. I had one fellow come and talk to me who told me he stopped keeping track at 10000hrs, and that most of his time was on business jets. No logbook though. I was not completely sure how to handle this, but after a word with my CFI, we came up with a short trip to the training area would not be a bad idea. He agreed. Later, while doing a perfect glide to a field in a practiced forced, he informed me he also did competative gliding. Well, duh. If I had known this and soem details about how recent this experience was, it would have made for a shorter flight.
When checking someone to rent a float plane, it was much simpler. I could usually tell from the first t/o and landing how safe someone was. I have found that people who have done float training tend to have fairly good hands and feet. I still did look for good handling of an engine failure though. But generally if a renter could make a decent landing in the river here, they would be safe. Usually 0.3 to 0.5 hours was typical.
I guess my point is, that IMHO the checkout really should be tailored to an individual. I have had some done on me, where 2 circuits was enough. I have also been quoted the usuall 1.5 hour full checkout, buy a place in CYBL. To be fair, they did not know me. But it still seemed excessive. While I have seen some instructors try to pad their logbook on the backs of these renters, it is not always a given that this is what is happening. Put yourself in the splace of a fairly low time instructor. Most that I have seen want to do it right, but still may need some time to discover just what is required to do so. Now, the renter should not have to pay extra for the low experience level of an an istructor to be sure. But as long as Instructing is entry level, we are kind of stuck with it. This is where a good CFI should come in. If you are seeing a bog standard answer of a 2 hour check required, I would hazard to say that this is more likely the policy of the school (bad policy IMO), and not simply the instructor milking a client.
You may also have noticed I focus alot on engine failures. This is the worst case scenario in any single. I have seen this handled extremely well (real ones that is) and extremely poorly. But to me, it is the most important exercise for a renter. Heck, they themselves might not even know how well they can handle it.
Well, this went on a bit longer than I had planned so I will stop now. I am sure that many would disagree with my perspective on it. It seemed to work though, with not too many complaints from my clients.
Since I'm here: when I was Instructing, the CFI pretty much left it up to me as to how in depth of a checkout I did on renters. With the application of a little judgement, a good look at the renters logbook/experience it was not hard to come up with something. My main concern was how safe the person would be if they got into the typical trouble areas. (i.e engine failure, approaching slow flight/stall, spiral dive). At the field I worked at, there was(is) a pretty small runway with a tiny non-standard circuit. For some of lower experience who have only used 200' wide runways 5000' long this sometimes needed a few circuits to get right.
Depending on the person, sometimes 1 or two circuits would do. Sometimes it was off to the training area for half an hour. In one case where the persons flight experience was low, and not to recent, I felt a couple flights were required. He agreed. I do not think that going on speck for a 2 hour checkout is a good idea for so many reasons. But I do know you cannot (as seems to be done here) paint every ones quest to rent a plane from the point of view of there own god-like flying skills. From what I have seen, not everyone, regardless of there experience, can jump into a 172 and safely go flying. Lots can, but you have to convince me of it.
Some examples:
Low time PPL with very little recent flying, might take .7 or so. The main thing I look for is handling of an engine failure. They do happen, and I want to be sure that the person can handle it. I don't care too much if it is a picture perfect flight test forced, but I do want to see a safe approach to a landable field. Somtimes low timers do well, sometimes not.
I had one fairly experienced pilot who I initially though would only require a circuit or two, request a trip to the training area. Good on him. It turns out it was the right thing. He made his field alright, but way to fast from diving to it, rather that gliding smoothly to it. A couple more trys with a little direction and he had it. For him the time was worth his while, and he said so.
Another error from a reletivly low time PPL I had was always coming short on the Forced, and then pulling the nose up in an effort to make the field. Did not even realize he was approaching stall untill I called for the overshoot. This fellow took a couple flights. Again after discussing it with him, he agreed.
Another thing to do when renting an aircraft is to be honest with whomever is doing the checkout. Having a logbook would help. I had one fellow come and talk to me who told me he stopped keeping track at 10000hrs, and that most of his time was on business jets. No logbook though. I was not completely sure how to handle this, but after a word with my CFI, we came up with a short trip to the training area would not be a bad idea. He agreed. Later, while doing a perfect glide to a field in a practiced forced, he informed me he also did competative gliding. Well, duh. If I had known this and soem details about how recent this experience was, it would have made for a shorter flight.
When checking someone to rent a float plane, it was much simpler. I could usually tell from the first t/o and landing how safe someone was. I have found that people who have done float training tend to have fairly good hands and feet. I still did look for good handling of an engine failure though. But generally if a renter could make a decent landing in the river here, they would be safe. Usually 0.3 to 0.5 hours was typical.
I guess my point is, that IMHO the checkout really should be tailored to an individual. I have had some done on me, where 2 circuits was enough. I have also been quoted the usuall 1.5 hour full checkout, buy a place in CYBL. To be fair, they did not know me. But it still seemed excessive. While I have seen some instructors try to pad their logbook on the backs of these renters, it is not always a given that this is what is happening. Put yourself in the splace of a fairly low time instructor. Most that I have seen want to do it right, but still may need some time to discover just what is required to do so. Now, the renter should not have to pay extra for the low experience level of an an istructor to be sure. But as long as Instructing is entry level, we are kind of stuck with it. This is where a good CFI should come in. If you are seeing a bog standard answer of a 2 hour check required, I would hazard to say that this is more likely the policy of the school (bad policy IMO), and not simply the instructor milking a client.
You may also have noticed I focus alot on engine failures. This is the worst case scenario in any single. I have seen this handled extremely well (real ones that is) and extremely poorly. But to me, it is the most important exercise for a renter. Heck, they themselves might not even know how well they can handle it.
Well, this went on a bit longer than I had planned so I will stop now. I am sure that many would disagree with my perspective on it. It seemed to work though, with not too many complaints from my clients.
Wahunga!
Re: Aircraft Rentals
Very good post, Spokes. I agree completely with your approach. Handling an engine failure is the number one thing I look for on a checkout, although I rarely do them now. Engines do fail, and inability to handle failures kills people. I do add one thing. Here in the mountains, there very often isn't a nice green patch to set down in, so I used to query the renter what he or she would do with nothing but forest or water below. I can't remember anyone who had really thought that out.
