Is instructing looked down that much?

[bluenote]

It seems that there is a shortage of instructors especially in southern Ontario because they are all leaving for "better" positions flying aircraft and there is nothing wrong with that.

Is instructing being looked at as a low end entry level position or are these individuals looked at with some respect especially the ones that are career instructors or instructors that have another means of income and instruct as well.

How much respect is given to these guys that do it because they love to do it?

any stories to share or comments would be appreciated

bluenote

[aero220]

In my experience, I would say that someone with a years instructing, will probably be not too much further ahead than a guy who has been working ramp for a year in the eyes of a prospective company. That being said, of you are looking for a job flying single engine aircraft, like pipeline patrol, or sky-dive pilot, your hours built by instructing would count highly towards that type of job; the entry level position.

Instructing hours may not be regarded at highly with alot of larger charter companies, but when it comes to transport Canada, your 172 PIC is just as worthy as an hour of PIC in a PC-12. They count toward the same hours in respect to the ATPL and similar licenses. Go to a charter company with an ATPL, and you will probably jump ahead of the 1 year ramp guy when a job comes up.

I know alot of companies around southern Alberta that need their captains to have an ATPL, and they just cant find pilots with the PIC requirements. Alot of the first officers were 250 hour wonders, and lack the log time to assume a captain position or are required to fly double the required hours as SIC.

There has always been a slight trend by companies to reject instructing hours, but alot have been changing their minds now that they are faced with a shortage.

[Tango01]

If it payed right, more people would stay in it, and more people would consider an entire career in flight instruction.

[Hedley]

Bingo. A new class 4 instructor, when you divide
his first year's income by the number of paid &
unpaid hours he had to work, is earning far less
than minimum wage. That's illegal, but no one
cares.

Why would you want to earn less than minimum
wage?

[TheRedPages]

In many cases the wage paid to instructors is close to or at minimum, based on the practice of only billing for flight and ground hours. Wile you (the student) are doing your walkaround, Chatting with friends, Checking the weather in Seattle for a flight in Halifax, We are not getting paid, But we have to be there. I think a previous poster was correct in saying Instructing will not necessarily help you get a job faster than being on the ramp, but it may get you to the left seat faster.

Here is my experience. Instructing didn't get me a flying job (outside of instructing) fatster than peers who went up north on the ground. It did however make me a better pilot on my way to the left seat. Sure we are only repeating the basics for teh first year,but there is a lot of benifit in flying almost every day and this does give you some exposure. The benifit is increased when you begin IFR instruction. I have always found instructors move up quicker to the left seat, I know many will argue this, But you can't argue with knowledge and PIC time.

I'm very glad I took the instructing route, I made enough to live in a big city, I had to hustle though. My first "real" job was a cakewalk in effort compared to instructing, and I never worried about everchanging requirements to upgrade and insurance requirements because I had some PIC time. Good to have come ATPL sign off as well.

The last benifit I see is if you leave one instructing job you can usually move to another easily and presumably return in short order to they type of instructing you were doing before. If rampie leaves company A, Because of ill performance, politics, bankrupcy or any multitude of reasons, He will start over a the bottom of the food chain at company B. I have seen this happen too many times, especially in the north. I think there are some boys and girls from the ground at NAC who can back me up here, Feel like you wasted some time?

Basically who cares what people think of instructing, Some of us former instructors have a poor attitude and therefor have made a bit of a name for ourselves, but at the end of the day I think it was a good route to go and although slight, it has it's advantages.

[MichaelP]

Bingo. A new class 4 instructor, when you divide his first year's income by the number of paid &
unpaid hours he had to work, is earning far less than minimum wage. That's illegal, but no one cares.

There is no-one to care, COPA doesn't care, and ATAC is absolutely opposed to paying instructors a legal wage. I know, I wrote to one, and was held in question for it by the other after I raised the subject.
Why would COPA forward my comments to ATAC? Did they really want to cause trouble for me?

I'm lucky, I'm being paid a bit more than most, but even then I look at what's left after deductions and I could be earning a lot more loading bags for Air Canada!
There is no answer for us, but the 'industry' is speaking for itself as instructors are hard to find.

Having raised the issue on another thread, it seems the older pilots are not giving back when they retire, perhaps they can't stoop so low!
There's nothing to beat experience, and if we have to ride on Class IV instructors let's try to give them the best advice we can through experienced leadership.

[Cat Driver]

Having raised the issue on another thread, it seems the older pilots are not giving back when they retire, perhaps they can't stoop so low!

That is not true in many cases, I instruct because I want to not because I have to.

My problem is I can not instruct at the ab-initio level.

[bluenote]

Michael P

I load bags for Air Canada and make a decent wage at it including all the great benefits, as well I am about to embark on an instructing career as well as load bags for AC.

Do you think this is a good idea? I don't have any more intentions on the big iron just enough to feel flight and see people get excited on learning to fly on top of having my job at AC slugging bags which would compliment my wage as well as part time instructing.

I get the feeling that instructors get treated like crap, I know I had some training me. But I want to make some sort of a difference by being more excited about the student.

bluenote

[MichaelP]

Instructors who do it from the heart are good people.
But doing it from the heart and not for the money is why employers have got away with it for so long.
I am probably the most guilty person for doing it from the heart, and I think I'm a fool!

Start from the heart and do your best not to get disheartened.

[shamrock104]

Bluenote have you started training yet?

[bluenote]

shamrock

I am ready to do the class 4 flight test and then hopefully I might get to pick where to instruct in the southern ontario region.

It is exciting to get going. How many new instructors or ones that when they first got their licence to instruct were excited.

thanks

bluenote

[AppleIron]

[quote=\"MichaelP\"]Instructors who do it from the heart are good people.
But doing it from the heart and not for the money is why employers have got away with it for so long.
I am probably the most guilty person for doing it from the heart, and I think I\'m a fool!

Start from the heart and do your best not to get disheartened.[/quote]

Instructing from the heart does have its upsides, with students passing, having a good time and learning as well. Thats the way I was taught, and see no other way to teach others. But I found out quickly that having a big heart in aviation also keeps the fridge empty at the end of the day. Being a nice guy in general then coming into instructing was the biggest shock I\'ve ever seen. I do love it, and veering off from doing it from the Heart is not the way to go. But I sure wish that I had food in my fridge to eat at the end of the day. If everyone in aviation had a heart, we would all be happy and just living our lives. But Life throws curve balls, try and hit em.

[Hoque]

In my experience, I would say that someone with a years instructing, will probably be not too much further ahead than a guy who has been working ramp for a year in the eyes of a prospective company. That being said, of you are looking for a job flying single engine aircraft, like pipeline patrol, or sky-dive pilot, your hours built by instructing would count highly towards that type of job; the entry level position.

Instructing hours may not be regarded at highly with alot of larger charter companies, but when it comes to transport Canada, your 172 PIC is just as worthy as an hour of PIC in a PC-12. They count toward the same hours in respect to the ATPL and similar licenses. Go to a charter company with an ATPL, and you will probably jump ahead of the 1 year ramp guy when a job comes up.

I know alot of companies around southern Alberta that need their captains to have an ATPL, and they just cant find pilots with the PIC requirements. Alot of the first officers were 250 hour wonders, and lack the log time to assume a captain position or are required to fly double the required hours as SIC.



There has always been a slight trend by companies to reject instructing hours, but alot have been changing their minds now that they are faced with a shortage.

Hi,

if you can send me the companies in Alberta, who are looking for captains or FO please.

[trey kule]

I have some thoughts on pay and respect.

Flight instructors will get the respect they deserve when it stops being a transition phase for most, and truly becomes a professional choice. I feel for those that enjoy it, are good at it, and want to make it a profession.

the second issue is about pay. for some reasnon flight schools have been able to offload their business risk by essentially paying most instructors only when they fly. And the pay does not reflect the time. Think about taking your car to the garage. The rate is $70.00 and hour. but the mechanic gets paid all day...it is up to the garage to keep them busy. At a flight school the rate is $70.00, but if no one is flying, the instrcutor does not get paid.

It is time that flight schools faced up to their responsibilities and started running their businesses in a more professional manner..and taking on the risk themselves. The most successful flight schools do not offer "start any time programs" and other inefficeint plans because they are so desparate to grab every student.

[bluenote]

It seems that flight instructors are looked at like crap at times, from what I keep reading on this site. I will be one shortly and hope to get enjoyment out of it. It is too bad that this is the way they see instructors, pretty much good for nothing.

my two cents

[MichaelP]

"my two cents "

Blimey the bloke's got money

It's how you view yourself that's half the problem... When you can't go out, you can't date, you can't buy this and that, and you worry about putting petrol in the car to get to work!
I rode a bike here for many years, kept me fit, but indicated my worth too...
...and I was one of the busiest instructors on this field... Always working, but always expected to give advice to my fellows without compensation, and I made them tea as well!

[bluenote]

But my spouse makes more than me, no worries on that part.

[Troubled_Coffee]

Who would you rather go to the bar and swap stories with? A bunch of heavy drivers talking about how the auto-pilot disconnected and the passenger in seat 12B had too much to drink? Or a group of instructors with stories of sending student's on their first solo, dumping water over their head?

It seems that this issue is never going to die because both groups want the respect that they deserve! I personally have just as much respect for the instructor who is making an effort to teach a new pilot the in's and out's of flying as the pilot who has put their time in working up in Tuktoyuktuk hoping that they catch the eye of some chief pilot. It's when people start to EXPECT a job out of some college that I get impatient.

[Kelowna Pilot]

There is no-one to care, COPA doesn't care, and ATAC is absolutely opposed to paying instructors a legal wage. I know, I wrote to one, and was held in question for it by the other after I raised the subject.
Why would COPA forward my comments to ATAC? Did they really want to cause trouble for me?

Because ATAC is a lobby group that represents the owners of flying schools, and you were starting to rock the apple-cart by asking uncomfortable questions.

You're lucky you weren't totally excommunicated for questioning the unwritten rules of Canadian aviation...

[Cat Driver]

Because ATAC is a lobby group that represents the owners of flying schools, and you were starting to rock the apple-cart by asking uncomfortable questions.

You're lucky you weren't totally excommunicated for questioning the unwritten rules of Canadian aviation...

He still might be because birds of a feather flock together....he is having problems getting paper work done which is a typical way TC slowly screws those who have the temerity to go against the flow.

[trey kule]

Michael P wrote:

Having raised the issue on another thread, it seems the older pilots are not giving back when they retire, perhaps they can't stoop so low!

I dont think that is a fair comment at all. I know several retired airline pilots that are instructing, and my plans are to instruct when I retire (two years away) .The problem is many (myself included) are not particularily fond of certain aspects of instructing and that makes it somewhat hard for us. (I am thinking here of 84 hour, seven day a week, work weeks).

You might find, as the industry morphs with a lower number of instructors, more retirees coming back into the fold, and with that influx, better treatment of instructors as I dont think many of them will put up with what how many flight schools treat instructors today.

[Kelowna Pilot]

it seems the older pilots are not giving back when they retire

No doubt a good chunk of all the pilots in the US who had their pensions stolen (while management paid themselves huge bucks with golden parachutes) will be inclined to "give back"... I don't think so.