Anyone else finding it impossible to get VNCs???

[Slappy the Squirrel]

So here's the scoop. Navcanada has not printed ANY new Thunder Bay VNC maps, but they have also stopped printing the old edition as well. This means that existing Thunder Bay VNC's are worth gold, as there are none being produced. So if you can get your hand on one, you are lucky. We have called all the major pilot supply stores in Canada, they simply are not available anywhere, we have resorted to photocopying maps for new students.... I hope nobody has to divert far!

Anyone else having similar problems??

Anyone have any suggestions for possible solutions??

[_dwj_]

What about taking the map to a print shop and getting them to print off 100 copies of the entire map for you? Completely illegal of course, but what other choice do you have? You could phone Nav Canada and ask them to either give you a supplier who has them in stock, or give you permission to copy them for your own use.

Another problem is that even when you can get the maps, they are a bunch of crap. The last Calgary VNC came out in early 2006 and it has errors in the controlled airspace around YBW. The irony is that the airspace changes were the reason for them publishing the new VNC, but they mucked it up so that it doesn't correspond to either the old or the new airspace! Various other errors include part of highway 2 missing and (in another Nav Canada publication) most of the visual reporting points for YBW are completely wrong - for example the coords of the Petrocan VRP are somewhere in the Pacific ocean!

So I wouldn't rely on the VNCs (or anything else from Nav Canada) even if you can get hold of them.

Dave

[SkyWolfe]

That sounds about right.

Working for a pilot supply store atm, I find nothing more annoying then having to tell a customer "sorry we don't have that map because navcanada doesn't want to send us any"

This is extremely frustrating for me and the customer. I don't remember the last time we even had a Calgary VNC. How sad is that?

All I can say, is keep complaining to Navcanada, maybe they will do something about it... one day.

[ticasse]

I've been trying to get the new montreal VNC since early december (I still have it on order) and havn't received anything yet.

[Chop&Drop]

No Toronto VNC's and just try to get a WAC they too are "out of print".

[raven54]

Wow, that is retarded..I don't understand..WTF??

[ScudRunner]

for example the coords of the Petrocan VRP are somewhere in the Pacific ocean!

Hmm Maybe NavCanada knows something, new off shore oil rig location perhaps.

[mabcan]

Here is the list of the missing VNCs with a red star :
http://www.navcanada.ca/NavCanada.asp?L ... tOfVFR.xml

Calgary, Vancouver, Montreal, Thunder Bay, Prince George, Edmonton, and so on... are no more available : what do they expect from us to do for flying ? This is part of the aeronautic safety and they don't care.

[linecrew]

No Toronto VNC's and just try to get a WAC they too are "out of print".

Nav Can stopped printing WAC's a number of years ago so they are definitely old news

There is an AIP Supplement out about the Toronto VNC being recalled. Something to do with an issue in the printing process.

The problem with VNC's is that they are not updated frequently like the high and low IFR charts so a lot of the information on them is old news too. This also means that they probably do one big print run of a chart and when the supply runs out that's it, no more.

I seriously think that Nav Can sees the VFR pilot as a thorn in their side because they can't extract the same revenues from them as the commercial guys. BOOO!!

[Liquid Charlie]

Getting the maps is certainly and issue but I got to ask and i know this sounds stupid but bare with me -- what is the issue - do you need them to navigate VFR (map reading) or do you need the airport, nav aid and radio frquencies information off them - there is a big difference -- to simply navigate go and get the topographic maps -- great detail and then carry an LE chart to get you nav info -- I know it's the day of the GPS so likely not many are actually do any map reading but if you need to I always thought the topos were far better than any VNC or WAC chart. Map reading is now almost a lost art -- give your students a topo and a list of MF's -- leave the GPS behind and let the adventure begin ---

[Hedley]

And here I thought it was just me that NavCan
was screwing with.

I tried to buy some Toronto VNC's recently,
and was told that the new ones had "errors"
and were "unavailable". Can't get the old
ones, either.

Are VFR pilots supposed to stop flying? Is
flight training supposed to stop, while the gov't
tries to clean up this mess? I might mention
that while it is legal to fly with no (or out of date)
pubs during day VFR, it is illegal to fly night VFR
or VFR-OTT unless you have current pubs on board.

Once again, we pay more, and get less.

Does anyone else see a pattern?

[Jim la Jungle]

This is absolutely outrageous. Let's all send emails of complaints: service@navcanada.ca
I don't know if it'll do anything but...

[L1011]

I remember the day the NOTAM was issued about the Toronto VNC as "not authorized for use" with absolutely no explanation...other than what FSS heard...FSS told me there was supposed to be an announcement at 1PM that day to let us know how we can legally fly VFR x-countries, which never came. I made about 10 phone calls, including to Transport, with no answers.

Later that night, the NOTAM about using the VNC "with caution" was issued, and what was wrong with the maps, and how a new one would be reprinted for Jan. 15....I don't see a new Toronto VNC, do you???

But yeah, I'm finding it impossible to get VNCs

[Cat Driver]

Interesting situation.

I might have a problem here.

I have not flown in Canadian airspace in years, however I will be picking up a new airplane in the USA soon.....if I can not buy these charts and enter Canadian airspace without them would I be at risk of a violation?

[Hedley]

enter Canadian airspace without (charts) would I be at risk of a violation?

Good question. CAR 602.60(1)(b) immediately comes to mind:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#602_60

... necessary current aeronautical charts and publications covering the route of the proposed flight and any probable diversionary route, if the aircraft is operated in VFR OTT, night VFR flight or IFR flight;

So if you stick to day VFR, you're ok. However it would
appear that every person in Canada who is flying night
VFR or VFR-OTT is contravening 602.60(1)(b) because
there simply are no current VNC's. Legally, these flights
cannot take place.

Now for the sticky wicket. CAR 602.71 says:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#602_71

Pre-flight Information
602.71 The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall, before commencing a flight, be familiar with the available information that is appropriate to the intended flight.

For day VFR, I can see Enforcement laying a charge in respect
of 602.71 against you, because you did not consult a current
charge during your pre-flight planning, as is required during
even a lowly private pilot flight test.

You could argue at the Tribunal that current sectionals
were not "available", or that in light of CAR 602.60 that
a VFR chart is not "appropriate" for pre-flight planning
of a VFR flight, but that would be a bit of an uphill battle,
and based on my many experiences at the Tribunal, I
would not bother spending much money on fighting a
602.71 charge, because the legislation is incredibly
vague, and as such casts a very wide net. Cheaper
just to pay the fine than argue it, which I guess is
really the whole idea.

[fogghorn]

This is crap, and everyone should complain. Does anyone know where a person can get hold of 500,000:1 charts for Canada? I don't really care about the aeronautical info, I can get that off the CFS.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for the info Hedley.

Now I have another question.

Have your laws changed since I flew in Canada, because as I understand it I am only required by law to produce the required documents on demand of a TC inspector.

As a chart is not a required document how do they determine if I have one with me or not?

As I read the law I only have to produce the required documents.....there is nothing in the law that requires me to communicate on any other level and for sure I do not have to physically give up my documents for even a moment.....produce means hold them and have them examined.....so how can they charge me with not having something with me that they can't force me to produce?

[scm]

So if you stick to day VFR, you're ok. However it would
appear that every person in Canada who is flying night
VFR or VFR-OTT is contravening 602.60(1)(b) because
there simply are no current VNC's. Legally, these flights
cannot take place.

Off the Navcanada website. "Please note that there are no expiration dates on all VFR charts and are valid until a new edition is produced."

All the rest is correct. I find it frustrating how many instructors argue that these documents are legally required for day VFR.

[Cat Driver]

The argument is mute, they have no legal right to force you to produce one anyhow.

[Dust Devil]

So what is a guy supposed to do if Nav Can doesn't send you a chart at all nevermind if they are expired or not. A few months back we headed up to fort nelson and could not find a chart for the life of us. Eventually after calling Nav Can someone managed to find one chart in somebody's desk and they sent it to us. complete with doodles and little notes written on it. Way to run a class act.

[2R]

Still got a beige cfs ???

[Dust Devil]

Still got a beige cfs ???

good lord LOL

[MrWings]

What an absolutely ridiculous situation. How is my old chart still "good" if it is torn to crap or if I never had one in the first place?

Any reporters here? This story in the media would speed production up, I'm hoping.

[MrWings]

Anyone have any suggestions for possible solutions??

Have you tried the comprehensive source for semi-antiquities of pop culture?



Ebay

[200hr Wonder]

Hey I moved from Vancouver Island to Calgary during this whole thing, so I went from having a set of charts, old tattered and torn or not, to a place where I could not get them. Very hard to have a student plan a trip if you can't get the frigging chart!