Float training.... :?

[ROUNDPOUNDER]

And in the clag give me one of those slow movin DHC 2 or 3. Cheaper to learn dial flying in a trainer or sim. As for the x-country going to a nearby lake is a good idea if the training area doesn't present several types of water, But you can learn a lot about cross wind, rough water and sailing in the hour and a half or two spent in transit. Sides, there's always the chance of your instructor goin to sleep.
JUst started in here today fellas so be gentle. Seen a lot of rippin and snortin on these pages.

[ROUNDPOUNDER]

FOr sure on the IFR CAT DRIVER but that's throwin a whole lot at a new float student when they are just trying to read the water surface (and below) on a decent VFR day. I'd say a 50 hour course would allow time for that but then we would have newbies pushin weather along with you and me.

[Cat Driver]

Hi Roundpounder:

Hell no I would not even think of suggesting IFR to a newbie, all I was doing was mentioning that there will be opportunities later to fly IFR on floats and amphibs.

Don't worry about anyone jumping on your posts here because that is gonna happen all the time.....

There are two ways to respond to guys who slam your posts........

The best is to out think them by setting them up in a situation whereby they have to support their position..........

If that does not work ignore them.

And with me just tell me to go f..k myself.....that will give me something to do...

[ROUNDPOUNDER]

Ok Cat Driver. Will do if necessary but from reading I think alot like you.

[justplanecrazy]

Thanks boys and girls (maybe)

I have never put up a post that has done so well....

Right now I am looking at Air Hart in YLW b/c its all year round. Anyone know how long 50 hours takes? Like how many days or weeks? Can you do any IFR????

Yea I am dumb and green, I know I know....

Or a private owner (ahem! Philly flyer!!) or maybe even Sudbury ON, told they have a good school and you can camp there.....

Hey Right Seat, what does it take to be a instructor at Rockcliff? Any openings?

Thanks again guys

Air Hart is a great company. I would actually suggest this company over all of those that are out there. They have a 185 that operates out of Pat Bay. This way you will be in a real advanced float flying atmosphere.

Flying floats on the west coast is probably some of the most challenging flying to be found. Take Tofino for example. You can get tides running 6kts there with all sorts of different currents to be found. The water runs in different directions depending on the tide and where you are in the inlet. It's a constantly changing medium and the winds and weather that you can encounter there are substantial. As well you have the Fraser within 20 min. of Victoria's base. You can get a lot of docking and manouvering experience on moving water here. Also there are high altitude lakes with extreme terrain only minutes away. Short field takeoffs with planned approaches and departures are a neccesity. As well there is a float plane base at the international so you'll also get experience operating in congested traffic areas. You'll usually be in the middle of 10 beavers, otters, and 206's.

I would suggest saving your money and doing your initial training on a small piper cub or whatever is cheap and close to you. You'll have so much to learn in the first seven hours that you won't want to think about dealing with a complex environment. In fact, a smaller plane will push you farther than a large one. I did all of my training on an Aeronca Champ. The limited power and small floats made operating in confined spaces and large swells a huge challenge. I would suggest saving the last ten hours or so for a 180 or even a 206 or beaver. If you are looking for a job, the operater will want you to have some time on type.

As for location, I really feel that most float plane pilots that haven't flown outside of Ontario, have never taken their training wheels off. Sure you can get some big winds, but 99% of the water that you are operating on is sheltered and still, with no terrain around it. Half the experience learned through flying floats is learned through combining float flying with low level flying in mountainous terrain. You'll be doing approaches into one way landings, with downdrafts, tailwinds, etc. Learn the basics wherever it'll be cheapest and then when you're really ready to learn how to fly, come to the west coast.

Even if you plan on operating in Ontario only, the experience gained in BC will make it that much easier. As for time, talk to the school that you're planning on doing it through. I did mine on the side so I don't know how quickly you'll be able to do it if you're commited full time. I think a good ball park figure would be around 3-weeks. As with everything else, the more time you commit to the classroom the less time you will spend in the air. Get the book How to Fly Floats and start going through it. You can do your endorsement in 2 days.

It'll probably end up being the most exciting fifty hours that you'll ever do, enjoy and good luck

[Cat Driver]

Justplanecrazy:

You are right on with your advice...

Sadly shawns Aeronca was wrecked a couple of days ago and Air Harts Cessna was wrote off several months ago....

Last that I heard Trevor pulled out of Victoria, but get in touch with him maybe he replaced it.

By the way Air Hart has a good reputation for a float plane school....

By very, very, very, very careful choosing who you choose to fly with here on the west coast...all that glitters is not gold..........

But Trevor runs a good school.

Cat Driver:

[Crazed Windscreen]

Since non of the aircraft I fly are IFR certified I can't do it however like cat driver says Vanouver and Victoria harbour both have circling and gps aproaches as well as helicopter rnav aproach. The company I work for does hood work in our training and on our vfr ppc just to stay sharp.

When your in the glue over Georgia straight at 300 feet you cant tell if you have 50 feet or 5 miles some times. Instrument training helps.

[Leaky Float]

I know this has alrady been discussed, but I think persuant to whether an instructor is teaching a student or the student teaching themselves all depends upon the student. Some people have the knack of float flying and some, well it comes with a fair amount of instruction. I was taught the basics (enough so I wouldn't hurt myself or anybody else) and pretty much turned loose. This worked well for me, but I hesitate to paint everybody else with the same brush.
I do believe that a cub on 1320's would probably be one of the, if not the best airplane to start with. It is docile, and forgiving, cheap to fly, but yet one still needs to learn the little tricks and quirks of floats.
I learned on our 90 hp J-3 and it performed quite well, but an exercise I did to compensate for the snappyness of the plane was to try different power settings (3/4 throttle, 1/2 throttle etc.) on the water take off run, thus simulating heavy loads, 2 chearleaders in the front seat and one in my lap, hot days, etc.
Float flying is one of lifes true joys.

P.S. Some of the guys that fly wheels get rather pissed when one ask why they have just half of an airplane!

[justplanecrazy]

Justplanecrazy:

You are right on with your advice...

Sadly shawns Aeronca was wrecked a couple of days ago and Air Harts Cessna was wrote off several months ago....

Last that I heard Trevor pulled out of Victoria, but get in touch with him maybe he replaced it.

By the way Air Hart has a good reputation for a float plane school....

By very, very, very, very careful choosing who you choose to fly with here on the west coast...all that glitters is not gold..........

But Trevor runs a good school.

Cat Driver:

Talk about bad luck out here eh?

Air Hart did shut down but I've heard that they are going to reopen. I'm not sure if it'll still be under Air Hart but they should be up and running fairly soon with the same level of quality as Air Hart. E-mail Air Hart and they should be able to refer you to whomever is running the show.

As for Stewart Air, talk about bad luck. He's about to leave the country when a student from Carson Air tried to land in a tailwind with very little room on his first solo. His landing run went into the rocks, and the plane isn't pretty. Thankfully no-one was hurt in either case. I don't know what Carson Air is doing but they've crashed two of there own floatplanes last year so they can't even get insurance for a new one. Now one of their pilots runs out of room in one of the most open landing areas on the coast. Seems like a few two many cases in a very little time to be bad luck.

Shawn Stewart is an excellent instructor and has an excellent school with great training in complex situations. He was flying an Aeronca so the costs are low and the skill level high. He's actually leaving to go fly overseas for a year but when he gets back, hopefully he'll start something up again. I think that he probably provided the best bang for your buck.

Pat Bay is definately the prime training area for the most variable amount of flying in one spot. I think Parallel aviation is going to try and set something up there now but I would be leary of training with them.

If you want to try somewhere else on the West Coast, you could try Langly Float School but you'll be starting out flying off of a river. This is definately good in the advanced stage, but doesn't help you when you are low time and learning the basics. They fly a 180. Also there is Ruutu Aviation which operates out of the little puddle right next to the Massey Tunnel. They fly a smaller plane so the costs should be reasonable, I haven't heard anything about the training quality though. Personally I would start your initial rating wherever it is cheapest and most convienient, then when you're confident flying floats, try and get in touch with Air Hart Victoria and finish it up with them.

Remember that contacts on the coast are contacts in the area of the highest seaplane concentration in the world. If you come from an Eastern training area with no coastal experience, they will want more hours and may not even look at you for being hired out here.

[Cat Driver]

Justplanecrazy :

Further to your comments.

Rutu Aviation operates a Luscombe and I know him personally.

When I was trying to get approval of a FTU Imrich Rutu was going to be the instructor for my school as well as my PRM.....

However Transport Canada determined that I should not be allowed to operate a flight school and I finally cancelled my application...

I gave Imrich all the necessary material to apply for his own school as he already owned the Luscombe on floats.

I was going to teach float flying as a part time float plane instructor working for Imrich, however when my first customer flew over from Scotland to start his 50 hour course with me he was informed by Transport Canada that they would not approve any training done by me...period... and gave him a list of instructors and schools they would approve the training from, so I lost that customer.

I finally have decided that it is not worth my fighting a losing battle with Transport Canada so I am not doing float plane instruction at this time.

However Imrich still has the Luscombe and he is still teaching.

I have no negative things to say regarding his operation and the cost is really fair.

As to some other so called Bush Courses on the west coast, remember to check who your instructor will be ....all that glitters is not gold...

Cat Driver:

[It's the Pitts]

I like this Cat Driver guy.


He has the same attitude that has built this place that we call Canada. That same spirit paved the north along with some great A/C such as the Norseman and the DHC's (in all there glory).

This thing that he talks about " The real world " if you are not an instructor, realy does exist. Thats how you opperate. Or you don't last long.


It sounds like Cat Driver has some real interesting stories.

I like to stir the pot.

[Cat Driver]

Yeh, its the Pitts :

I sort of fall back on the real world experiences, hell that is how everything is improved upon.

The Norseman, Beaver and the DC3 were all part of what makes my outlook on flying the way it is, because that is what we flew to earn our living.

As to the instructor issue, I received my instructors rating in 1959 and let it lapse in 1965, however I still can relate to the world of instructors.

As long as a few of us are still alive, hopefully we can interject some real world stuff to bridge some of the garbage that seems to be so prevalent in the training industry lately.

Anyhow I've been around long enough that I feel I've earned the right to express my thoughts......

Cat Driver:

[It's the Pitts]

Cat Driver,

I didn't think that you had been around that long. You must have some great stories to tell. Have you flew all those A/C?

Any advice for a young guy starting out, who wants to fly floats?

Things are slow here in Sask. Where you would you suggest to be at this time?

[Cat Driver]

Its the Pitts :

First off how many airplanes you have flown is usually in direct porportion on how long you have been flying..

It's the getting started that hurts.

My best advice is to target what you want to do.

If it is floats get yopur float rating in the cheapest method possible.

Then research all the operators, pick the one you want to work for, get to know them, impress them with your sincerity and willingness to learn and work....don't over do it..you don't want to be a pain in the ass.

Do not, I repeat do not, believe all the gloom and doom naysayers who believe that it is any more difficult to start now than it ever was.

I am sorry but I have lost touch with the small bush operators, just start doing some research, you will soon find the good ones and the bad ones.

A good place to go to get the feel is of the bush game is Kenora when the ice goes out.

P.S.

Be careful with the locals there is lots of social deseases around, best to just get drunk with the pilots at night and go to bed alone and wank.

Cat

.

[It's the Pitts]

Thanks Cat,

What equipement are you on now?

I have a friend in Alberta who is from that area and her father is still there. I'm going to call her tonight and get her Father's #. He is a private pilot out there. I hope that he knows someone or knows of someone that can put me in touch with the right people out there. Or atleast know whos whos out there and could recomend the more reputable one.

[Cat Driver]

Its the Pitts :

I am self employed and have two partners.

We are in the warbird rebuilding and restoring, flight training and ferry business.

We also work for the movie industry setting up aircraft scenes , ever seen the James Bond series? we did a lot of their background stuff with airplanes.

As to flying, the last two movies we did was " Band of Brothers" and we did all the flying for "Below" by Mirimax.

You can find a picture of my two partners and I standing in front of the airplane we flew in the movie " Below". ( I'm the runt in the middle ) look at the story in General Aviation News in my web site.

Cat Driver

[joe to go]

justplanecrazy

I just had to respond to your post about Carson Air's old student landing in a tail wind and crashing a float plane. Well, if this plane was crashed in a tailwind, how is it the fault of Carson Air. Why make an effort to say that it was a former Carson Air student? Obviously Stewart Air taught this person to fly floats. (And i'm not blaming Stewart Air in the least) Not Carson Air. As per the comment on the fact that they can't get insurance for a floatplane, how do you know this. Are you the insurance guy or just some guy that likes to tell stories.

[Cat Driver]

Joe to Go :

I think what is being said is getting insurance for float planes is becoming very expensive.

The biggest problem with float plane training and insurance is the mandatory requirement for five solo take offs and landings to get the float rating.

If a check ride were to replace the solo circuits insurance would be far more affordable.

What % of hull do you pay on a Maule for hull insurance?

Cat Driver:

[justplanecrazy]

justplanecrazy

I just had to respond to your post about Carson Air's old student landing in a tail wind and crashing a float plane. Well, if this plane was crashed in a tailwind, how is it the fault of Carson Air. Why make an effort to say that it was a former Carson Air student? Obviously Stewart Air taught this person to fly floats. (And i'm not blaming Stewart Air in the least) Not Carson Air. As per the comment on the fact that they can't get insurance for a floatplane, how do you know this. Are you the insurance guy or just some guy that likes to tell stories.

Joe to go,

I guess someone else didn't like the connotations that went along with that post as it has been edited. I don't mean to start a rumor mill, I guess I was just vocalizing my puzzled thoughts aloud. I mean three planes in two years seems like more than a simple coincidence. Landing down wind is not something that should have to be stressed in 6 hours of dual during a float rating. This in no way can be implicated with the float training.

Here are the facts regarding the latest incident. There is an atis that the pilot was required to listen to when he was coming into the zone. The water wasn't glassy nor were there large waves. The landing area is enormous. The weather was clear. He was given the wind direction/velocity by the tower. There is a runway lined up with the bay to help clarify your direction. The student was told to ask for an into wind landing if there was a tailwind before he left. He made the approach way to high. He never backed off on the approach when he must have known he was running out of room.

Clearly there was some blatant misjudgement made on the part of the student. I was mearly wondering how this could have happend and why?

The insurance comment was information given to me through word of mouth. I have not verified this with the company but two planes in a little over a year does make it sound like the insurance costs would have been too high to be able to afford.

In retrospect it isn't fair for Carson Air for me to suggest such things without conclusive facts.

I would suggest that the moderator remove all posts regarding the incidents.

At the same time, the post regarding Air Harts crash and Stewarts Air crash should also be removed. They will only lead to speculation that the instructing may have been to blame, yet in this incident it is pretty clear that it was not.

[Mitch Cronin]

I hope this isn't just fodder for the grinder at this point, but there used to be, and I think may still be an outfit in Greenbank Ont., that keeps a 172 on floats for training in Port Perry...

[ROUNDPOUNDER]

I have been told that the Winnipeg Flying Club has float training on a C172 and the instructor is an actual working bush pilot doing it part time.

[spafloats]

Tacata Airways used to have a 172 on Lake Scugog as did Canadian Flight Academy. Neither is offering float training anymore.
Float training east of Toronto is available through Thompson Air Services Ltd. (Bay of Quinte) or Elmhirst Vacation Air (Rice Lake).