Anyone else finding it impossible to get VNCs???

[200hr Wonder]

Hey I moved from Vancouver Island to Calgary during this whole thing, so I went from having a set of charts, old tattered and torn or not, to a place where I could not get them. Very hard to have a student plan a trip if you can't get the frigging chart!

[Slappy the Squirrel]

Okay... So it's not just me. I guess the only real course of action is to complain so they send us all of their own personal charts, then they have to produce new ones for themselves. I'd be happy enough to hold a copy of the old one. But seriously, everyone write them an email.

[Hornblower]

I am only required by law to produce the required documents on demand of a TC inspector.


As I read the law I only have to produce the required documents.....there is nothing in the law that requires me to communicate on any other level and for sure I do not have to physically give up my documents for even a moment.....produce means hold them and have them examined.....so how can they charge me with not having something with me that they can't force me to produce?

Not quite, but close

103.02 (4): For the purposes of this Section, "other document" includes all writings, papers and other records made, held or maintained by the owner, operator or pilot-in-command of an aircraft for the purpose of recording any action, activity, performance or use of the aircraft or any activity of the owner, operator or crew members in respect of that aircraft, whether or not the documents are required by law to be made, held or maintained.

As for produce only:

A.A. 8.7(1) Subject to subsection (4), the Minister may

(a.1)remove any document or other thing from the place where the inspection or audit is being carried out for examination or, in the case of a document

and

(c) seize anything found in any place referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds will afford evidence with respect to an offence under this Part ...

So maybe you'd be fucked, ... however I think that after reading 103.02 real hard, maybe a map is not a document, but it may be a point of contention

[Cat Driver]

So maybe you'd be fucked, ... however I think that after reading 103.02 real hard, maybe a map is not a document, but it may be a point of contention

Like I said Hornblower its been years since I have flown in Canada and reading the A.A. has not been on my list of need to do things for a long time.


I'm going to go have another look at the act and see exactly where all this fits in, this bit stands out and needs a closer look.

(c) seize anything found in any place referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds will afford evidence with respect to an offence under this Part ...

If a TCCA inspector or inspectors are asking for this stuf on a random ramp check without any obvious reason to believe you have committed an offense they are fishing.

My position is if I have done nothing wrong I am not about to risk dealing with one of these people on any level other than the minimum required under law, so unless they can give me reason to believe I have committed an offense I am going to show them nothing other than the documents required to be carried and presented to act as PIC on an airplane.

Then I'm making three calls.

First to the RCMP to request they send a member to where we are.

Then to my lawyer.

Then to Merlin Preusse's office to inform him that he will be getting a call from my Lawyer and he is going to be involved in another harassement inquiry process once again.

The last time ol'e Merlin got involved in that process with me over one of his thugs harassing me he got his ass whipped.

[wxnut]

That sounds about right.

Working for a pilot supply store atm, I find nothing more annoying then having to tell a customer "sorry we don't have that map because navcanada doesn't want to send us any"

This is extremely frustrating for me and the customer. I don't remember the last time we even had a Calgary VNC. How sad is that?

All I can say, is keep complaining to Navcanada, maybe they will do something about it... one day.

where do you work? im assuming AV world? I bought Calgary VNC's there not too long ago.

[Bushav8er]

This is absurd to say the least!

Perhaps a class-action lawsuit is in order for failure to provide the services (to customers/clients) as stated in its mandate, not to mention that they charge a fee for providing these services:

From their web site, in part:

General Overview of the Company


NAV CANADA is the private sector, non-share capital corporation, financed through publicly-traded debt that owns and operates Canada's civil air navigation service (ANS). We purchased the system from the federal government, on November 1, 1996, for $1.5 billion.

Mandate and Services
The Company is responsible for the safety and efficiency of the ANS. We provide customers - airlines and other owners and operators of aircraft - with the following services: air traffic control, flight information, weather briefings, airport advisory services, aeronautical information services and electronic aids to navigation.

NAV CANADA is a private sector company and not a federal agency. However, the Company's safety performance is regulated by Transport Canada, just as Transport Canada regulates the safety of individual airlines.

Governance
NAV CANADA represents a unique consensus among the major stakeholders in the air navigation system and this is reflected in our corporate governance structure.

The Company is governed by a Board of Directors comprising 10 appointees from the four founding members of NAV CANADA as follows: air carriers - 4; general and business aviation - 1; federal government - 3; bargaining agents - 2, as well as four independent directors, appointed by the Board, with no ties to stakeholders. The President and Chief Executive Officer is also a director.

[Benwa]

Another way they could deal with their inability to provide aeronautical publications would be to make the actual GIS Data available so you could print your own maps.

[small penguin]

I have a question. If I fly with the "most currently available" VFR chart, which is likely out of date anyways, how long will it take NavCanada before they get pissed at all of us for violating new airspace that isnt marked on the "most currently available" VFR charts we have

Im not going to stop flying because some @#$! up cant get me an up-to-date map.

As for the initial copying of the map that someone said, @#$! legalities, go copy the map. Then ask NavCan what they prefer, you flying with an illegal photocopy, or you flying without a map.

[V1RotateV2]

Although I don't usually agree with their ways, I guess the Americans would find a way to profit from this and "help" the public.

A lawyer would get a VFR pilot who got "lost" due to the missing charts, then sue Navcanada for millions and try to get it certified as a class action.

The courts will order them to restart printing charts and pay tons of money for their negligence.

Then, of course, Navcanada will raise all fees to recoup the money until their next screw up, and so the story repeats ad infinitum.

[linecrew]

I have a question. If I fly with the "most currently available" VFR chart, which is likely out of date anyways, how long will it take NavCanada before they get pissed at all of us for violating new airspace that isnt marked on the "most currently available" VFR charts we have

Im not going to stop flying because some @$#! up cant get me an up-to-date map.

Well any such airspace would be described in the latest issue of the Designated Airspace Handbook (DAH) which is available on the web, would it not?

Just playing devil's advocate...I would rather have a current chart too rather than having to go to another source for the same info.

[small penguin]

Designated Airspace Handbook... Theres a name I've never heard of before... Is this a new publication? Or aimed at commercial ops?

[pokaroo]

i urge each and every one of you to email navcanada expressing your concerns ..... service@navcanada.ca

this company has a nasty habit of letting things go until somebody speaks up.

[Hedley]

I emailed them a link to this thread

Not sure if anyone there knows how to click
on a URL in their email client, to start their
browser, though.

[linecrew]

Designated Airspace Handbook... Theres a name I've never heard of before... Is this a new publication? Or aimed at commercial ops?

...please tell me you're joking.

[Troubled_Coffee]

FYI an E-mail goin around the office from TSB in pacific region

Hello ####, I contacted TC Regional System Safety and the person
responsible for Airspace & Navigation in Ottawa (Mr. Denis Blanchet
1-613-991-9923). I learned that TC have taken enforcement action against
NAVCANADA. Another recourse that operators have is to raise any safety
issue with their associations ie. COPA, etc... Several incidents have
occurred since the deficiencies started sometime in 2005 when the
original publisher 'Natural Resources Canada' was dropped by NAVCANADA.

NAVCANADA apparently meets International standards by making the
information shortcomings known and publishing workarounds in the other
Aeronautical Information Program publications, ie. CFS /NOTAMS. The last
edition of the maps remains valid and in concert with amendments in
these other pubs should afford pilots guidance. It is admittedly not
convenient and increases their workload but is the only available
band-aid solution until NAVCANADA is compelled through the outstanding
enforcement and ongoing industry actions to remedy their publishing
woes.

I hope this helps, Please advise if I may be of further assistance.

Best Regards,
#########
Senior Investigator - Technical (Air)
Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Pacific Region

[small penguin]

Designated Airspace Handbook... Theres a name I've never heard of before... Is this a new publication? Or aimed at commercial ops?

...please tell me you're joking.

Actually. Not at all. I'll look into the pub later tonight.

[silentivan]

Oddly enough, I managed to get my grubby hands on a "recent" Calgary (ca. February 2006) while I was on a X-country in Tucson, AZ.

Seriously, its sad when I'm able to find a map in the states that should be available in Canada. For half the price no less.

And thus we bend over for Nav-Canada, once again. *le sigh*

[Cat Driver]

Maybe the deep thinkers who run Nav Can took being " non profit " to mean not to produce anything?

[MrWings]

The nation's supplier of avaition safety related material unable to deliver. Budding pilots flying with photocopied maps. Canadian aviators buying Canadian maps in the States as that is the only place to find them. Danger in the skies.

Is this not a great story? People love to hear about government waste and mismanagement. Isn't there a 200hr wonder reporter willing to run with it?

[the_professor]

I've tried to minimize the quoting so that Doc can lay off his heart medication.

{1} They have contracted the printing of shore{this when our print industry is in deep trouble} and on the first print run there were huge airspace errors and they missed a few little details, such as most of the airports!

I don't know how NC could miss "most of the airports" on a map. It is possible but not likely. A couple of airports is more likely. If the charts are printed in batches, that is one thing. The fact that they may be printed offshore (I have no knowledge of that) is totally irrelevant. NC's mandate is to run the ANS cost-effectively, not to prop up Canada's printers.

{2} Having had a hiring policy based on "Did you work for a certain Northern airline" and not one founded on expertise we are now getting the fall out from the down loading of these services to an organisation totally lacking in management skills and acountabillity to the Canadian public.

I'm sure an association with First Air as a former employer has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a shortage of VNCs today.

Its time to subject Nav Can to a public audit and return controll to the public domain, the ATC system should be treated as part of our national infrastructure, just as highways and comunications, this can be self funded by returning the aviation gas tax to the industry which would more than cover the costs

Uh, NC is routinely audited by TC, and it IS treated as part of our national infrastructure. That's why it is supported by legislation that allows it to collect the fees necessary to ensure the proper operation of the ANS (VNC issue notwithstanding).

As for accountability or responsiveness, I once found an error on an NC map. I spoke to someone in Ottawa, and had my phone call returned by a second person within the hour. They diligently noted the problem and it was corrected in the next issue. Can't ask for much more than that.

And don't kid yourself. The avgas tax (Jesus, do we have to go through this AGAIN?) would NOT support the operation of the billion-dollar ANS, even if NC did receive that revenue.

All that being said, I'd be pissed if I wanted a VNC and couldn't get one. I will grant you that a monopoly should take action to rectify a situation such as this, since no reasonable alternative to the pubs is available.

But it is not a First Air/management incompetence conspiracy. Some lackey may have entered the wrong number on a spreadsheet somewhere. You don't call an entire system into question because of a map shortage.

[the_professor]

Seriously, its sad when I'm able to find a map in the states that should be available in Canada. For half the price no less.

Where do you buy your maps in Canada? At an FBO?

[the_professor]

Designated Airspace Handbook... Theres a name I've never heard of before... Is this a new publication? Or aimed at commercial ops?

...please tell me you're joking.

Actually. Not at all. I'll look into the pub later tonight.

[silentivan]

Seriously, its sad when I'm able to find a map in the states that should be available in Canada. For half the price no less.

Where do you buy your maps in Canada? At an FBO?

Depends on my need. If I need one quick-like, an FBO, or pilot supply shop usually does it. They tend to be in the same building.

Other times I just go mail order through VIP.