WestJet Union Meeting?

[Mustard]

I think I'll go to the meeting. I'm looking forward to KAG showing up and telling him
to "stick his union up his ass."...........BS

[bobcaygeon]

So Bob, once again, please let me understand. Are you insinuating that WJ Flight Safety is a "Beer and Pizza" club?

Bend it whatever way you want, but if you came toe to toe with Boeing, who would likely win??

In house flight safety/dealing with TC is a little different than fighting with the manufacturer/ industry

Boeing's lobby effort has the financial clout of a small country.

They were caught bribing/ lobbying the US government for the 767 tanker program which was pretty much a gimme for them (would the US airforce really buy an Airbus). They just wanted a ridiculously fat contract.

[BigB]

Thanks for the insight Bob. It is not my intention to 'bend" anything, just to clarify what I have perceived as innuendo. You seem to be in the ALPA know, so if you don't mind answering a few questions for me, I'd appreciate it.

1) How much does ALPA receive per year in revenue/dues?

2) How many staff does ALPA employ?

3) Have ALPAs revenues increased or decreased within.....oh...the last 5 years?

[TR Deployment]

Unions only benefit one entity, Themselves ! They are just like the government, they will take your money and pretend to look after you. Those union fees will be collected and distributed to themselves. Seniority only benefits the top 20%. Have fun with your union if you have one ! Look and watch AC's awesome union power in 2009 !

[shankdown]

Wouldn't the pilots have to WANT to unionize? Even if some reject in T.O. called dictator to get the ball rolling, don't the masses have to wanna jump on board with the rolling rock? I haven't talked to, or flown with, one person who wants to unionize. Myself as well. A union is only required when management doesn't listen to their pilots. WJ listens.

[CanadaEH]

I don't think unionizing at WJ is as easy as people think. While the WJ pilots aren't represented by a union, it is represented by an association. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the eyes of the labour board the association is just as significant as a union, no? And as such, if there was interest in bringing in a union the members of said association would have to vote to decertify its current association then vote on bringing in a new one (union). Same goes for all other departments.

[Dockjock]

If I was a WJ pilot I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned about the other employee groups unionizing.

Unionized F/A's, CSA's, and rampies will do a lot more damage to the bottom line than any pilot union ever will.

[Bede]

Isn't there something in the WJ association by laws where all employees must vote 75% to allow any of the other groups to leave the association? Fat chance 75% of pilots and mechanics would vote to allow the F/A's to unionize.

[Dockjock]

I don't think bylaws or contracts can supercede the Freedom of Association in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, however, that would be a heck of a trump card in protecting the profitability of the company.
Air Canada and Westjet pilots are paid comparably per the size of the aircraft they operate, yet one company makes money and one doesn't. Air Canada CSA's, F/A's, and rampies are unionized and Westjet's aren't. Hmmmmmm.......

[CanadaEH]

Bede I don't think that's the case.

[Four1oh]

no, I think each group would have to vote 75% in favor of certifying themselves. If the last CUPE union drive was any indication, there's nothing to worry about in the near future. It was a dismal failure for poor CUPE.

[Bede]

Dockjock,

Good point. I believe though that the WJ association acts as a collective bargaining agent and therefore would be supported as such because it allows emploees the fundemental right of Freedom of Association as outlined in SCC Health Services and Support – Facilities Subsector Bargaining Assn. v. British Columbia.

CanadaEh,
Can you fill me in on how your association works? What prevents one group from unilaterally leaving the association and bargaining on their own?

[CanadaEH]

With all due respect, I'd rather not answer that as I'd probably provide more inaccuracies than accuracies.

[Four1oh]

what do you mean 'by one group'? All the CSA's? All the FA's? or the CSA's in YYZ specifically?

[Dockjock]

My point was that I think it would be contra to the charter of rights for one group (for example, F/A's) to be prevented from forming their own standalone bargaining group by another group ie. the pilots, mechanics, CSA's, and/or rampies. For a group to want to bargain alone, my interpretation would be that they would merely have to vote for that as a group. Nobody can keep them from doing so, contract or not.

In any case as you say it is currently a remote possibility.

[rudder]

WJ is a Federal undertaking and as such all employees are covered by the Canadal Labour Code and not provincial labour statutes. Without a Certification Order from the CIRB, there is no legally recognized bargaining agent on the property. Having said that, they have the right to consent to communicate with the company collectively even as a collection of different employee classifications but do not forfeit their rights to organize separately per the CLC.

Having the WJ pilots as proud Canadian members of ALPA would be a benefit for the WJ pilots and a benefit for ALPA. Their voices and their expertise would be a welcome addition to the professional pilots largest voice for safety. Similarly, Skyservice, Sunwing, and all other professional pilots groups should also give serious consideration to the benefits of sitting alongside their professional counterparts from across North America and the world.

Even the Chinese pilots are now members of IFALPA! That just goes to prove that even communists see the value of inclusion in the most technically knowledgeable aviation association in the world.

Frank Stronach solicited the CAW. Perhaps the company should encourage the pilots to join ALPA. You can keep everything you have (which seems like a pretty good deal) and access technical resources that are unmatched anywhere. There are benefits to be had by all.

Rant over.

[Four1oh]

As an ex-ALPA member myself, I'll respectfully decline the invite. Thanks for the generous offer though.

[Valcore]

Ditto!

[skyhigh]

No good reason for a pilot union at Westjet. We have a great relationship with management. In my opinion it will do more harm than good.....besides the ALPA dues are a rip off. I was in a previous airline with ALPA representation and had two huge issues that came up within the first 6 months. Spoke with our union leaders and their pathetic response was that they can't do anything about it.....

[Machiavelli]

rudder, that is the funniest post I've ever read here, worthy of 182driver. Good one.

[Rem]

Having the WJ pilots as proud Canadian members of ALPA would be a benefit for the WJ pilots and a benefit for ALPA.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..... No.

[Four1oh]

he's right about one thing, it would be a benefit for ALPA.

[wrc]

As an ex-ALPA member myself, I'll respectfully decline the invite. Thanks for the generous offer though

ditto

ditto again

[WJ700]

Most of the pilots at Westjet have been previously stung by ALPA in one way or another. Not to say that ALPA doesn't do great things in Safety and such, but it just won't fit at WestJet with the way ALPA's constitution is written. As for PACT, it can be very easily argued that it isn't really legal on paper, but then it can also be argued that PACT IS the only process in place at WestJet and PACT is an agent by 'Employer Recognition' similar to what Sky Service was.
I think the natural evolution of the current WJPA within PACT is the logical process, as our working relationship with the WestJet Flt Ops leadership team is enviable to say the least. ALPA typically doesn't foster such a good relationship and we would be going in reverse when advancing our work conditions... and who would want that?? Anyone who has worked in a union position will agree that the working relationship is key to getting anything done with speed and rational thinking.

Just ask the original AC what they think of CALPA (set aside Piche' as its been beaten to death...please). ACPA may have some faults, but at least the pilots of Air Canada developed their own rules to their own association and rules of how it is run. The WJPA is ours to shape as we see fit.... the latest Policy and Procedures manual is evidence of this. Legal, Medical, LOL Insurance benefits may take longer to develop but its worth the wait in my opinion.

[KAG]

I'm also a former ALPA member. There is NO need for a union at Westjet. Unions are great for companies that are taking advantage of their working groups; Westjet is doing no such thing. We have a great working relationship with our team leaders and managers with an open door policy second to none. A union would forever destroy that relationship; we would most likely lose such perks as ESP, profit sharing, stock options. How we bid, travel, and work would also change. Soon we would be following down the slippery slope of other carriers and we all know how we don’t want that.

I for one will not pay union dues to watch ALPA or any other union ruin this company. Thanks but no thanks.