lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

['effin hippie]

You're right, Strega. CMA Doesn't. I was seeing AC and Jazz in your post, not JAzz and CMA.

And yes, CMA pays shit. Everyone knows they pay shit. They always have a line up at their door though, despite the fact that all their applicants can certainly get more elsewhere. Maybe the FO's there don't have to clean the machine, or, god in heaven preserve us, reconfigure (gasp!). Seems like everyone there is pretty OK with the arrangement.

ef

[Kelowna Pilot]

To play devil's advocate, you could argue that pilot pay is about right.

Look at it this way...

1. To be a pilot requires no need for real formal education. You could have Grade 2 and be an airline captain, and still be totally competent and safe.

2. Basically anyone can be taught to fly an airplane. Let's not delude ourselves, it's not rocket science. It doesn't require any particularly hard to find skills, unlike being an ATC for example, which requires a very special kind of person. Or a doctor or any other job which the average joe on the street could not do. Being a pilot is more about opportunity (luck, timing, how much money you have) than it is about being an exceptional person.

3. This will probably get me in trouble, but the general mentality of pilots is pretty trades orientated with all the talk about "work ethics". Professionals don't need to spout off about "work ethics" and "positive attitudes", it's just assumed you got them. "Work ethic" and "positive attitude" - that's high school or low-level hourly worker talk.

4. Also note that the airliners are becoming more and more automated (less skill to fly) and a lot of the Captain's authority has been stripped from him and put in the hands of people on the ground. That de-skilling does lead to lower pay.

That's the devil's advocate position.

I personally think pilots are generally under-paid and the industry freely exploits pilots because they know all about the weird, almost sexual like "dream" pilots have of watching the autopilot track a magenta line from Calgary to Vancouver in an Airbus. Pilots are kinda like crack-whores in a way, and the industry is the pimp who controls and exploits them...

[Flying Nutcracker]

Good devil, there Kelowna P!

Why there is talk of work ethics and positive attitude would be so that the employer knows that a candidate will be a "team-player" and not stir up a storm with bad influence! It is high school.There's one in every class, isn't there?!?!?

Who would want to hire someone whose agenda is to ask for more without offering more??? It has been said here before, we are not professionals by definition, but we act like professionals. But someone please remind me of the definition of being professional. I think you mentioned that it is assumed that professionals act with good ethics and a positive attitude. It seems we have to prove it... But some of us are not very good at it!

I don't agree with the exploitation part, but I see where you're coming from. I think the exploitation lies within the market of business. The airlines/operators are exploiting themselves to survive in an industry driven by severely lowered profit margins due to strong and tons of competition, and not to mention an ever increasing bureaucratic regulatory operating cost. Sacrifices are made down the ladder to increase the margin. As pilots we are a mere intermediate step of the complex ladder, not #1. That is reality. If you don't like it, find another ladder to climb.

FN

[Wilbur]

Strega, 2-4K hours flying equates to what, 3-5 years full time employment? That is minimally experienced in most occupations. As well, is AC, Jazz, WJ or any other reasonable size airline having trouble finding pilots? No - so why would they pay more if there are lots of qualified people willing to work for what they're offering? Airline executives may not be the brightest bulbs in the nation's boardrooms, but they sure aren't that stupid.

For any pilot who thinks pilots are underpaid, it begs two questions. Why did you become a pilot? And, why are you still a pilot? If you went into flying knowing what it pays, don't complain. If you went into flying without knowing the nature of the industry and pay, that was your mistake. If you stay in the industry when you are unhappy about the working conditions and pay rates, you're stupid. Put on your big girl panties and take responsibility for your own life and choices. Either suck it up and tough out the climb up to the bigger salaries, or shut up and do do something else in life. There is no dishonour in either choice, and both choices are "right" depending on the individual. The only "wrong" choice is to keep doing something that is not meeting your needs, whatever they might be.

[shimmydampner]

A-fuckin-men!

[Dust Devil]

So a company should expect more from a pilot than what they pay them for?
Hogwash!

no response here?[/quote]

I actually didn't see this question. My response is If I had a pilot come up and tell me that he is going to do the absolute minimum I would skid him/her immediately. Not because they are doing the absolute minimum but because their crappy attitude is not something I need infecting my company. People with attitudes like this are like cancer inside a company and if they are not removed early their attitude will spread thru out the entire company.

[Liquid Charlie]

for the record,

Large aircraft type ratings are not that expensive..

http://www.fti737.com/

All I can say is Buyer beware -- a 737-200 -- BFD -- it's a lost leader on an airplane which gives you nothing - I noticed non of the "desired" types have prices listed -- and to throw money away on a type rating when you have minimum experience is a waste.

The only time I would consider buying a type rating is for a direct entry "money seat" - I know a guy who did this but he was already a 75 skipper went out and bought a 77 rating and was hired direct entry left seat internationally

The other pit fall is that there is a chance TC will not recognize the type rating if the school isn't TC approved.50K


50K starting -- wouldn't that be nice -- wild weed talking here

[Strega]

So a company should expect more from a pilot than what they pay them for?
Hogwash!

no response here?

I actually didn't see this question. My response is If I had a pilot come up and tell me that he is going to do the absolute minimum I would skid him/her immediately. Not because they are doing the absolute minimum but because their crappy attitude is not something I need infecting my company. People with attitudes like this are like cancer inside a company and if they are not removed early their attitude will spread thru out the entire company.[/quote]

So are you saying that you expect more than what you pay for?

[Cat Driver]

So are you saying that you expect more than what you pay for?

Now there is a good question.

[Dust Devil]

So a company should expect more from a pilot than what they pay them for?
Hogwash!

no response here?

I actually didn't see this question. My response is If I had a pilot come up and tell me that he is going to do the absolute minimum I would skid him/her immediately. Not because they are doing the absolute minimum but because their crappy attitude is not something I need infecting my company. People with attitudes like this are like cancer inside a company and if they are not removed early their attitude will spread thru out the entire company.

So are you saying that you expect more than what you pay for?[/quote]

Not at all. I do expect a good attitude for what I pay however. And by walking up to the boss and saying I will only do the minimum expected of me shows a bad attitude. Also the employee who does the bare minimum is likely to remain at the pay they are at or layed off when times get tight. If I have someone who does an exceptionable job I reward that with an increase in pay. I don't think I've ever had a pilot ask for a raise however those who have earned them have gotten them unsolicited by themselves.

How is that for an answer Cat?

[Cat Driver]

How is that for an answer Cat?

[Jaques Strappe]

Hey Kelowna

I have to take exception with ya..

To play devil's advocate, you could argue that pilot pay is about right.

Look at it this way...

1. To be a pilot requires no need for real formal education. You could have Grade 2 and be an airline captain, and still be totally competent and safe.

I don't know of any "Airline Captains" with a grade two education. Most airlines require a degree.

2. Basically anyone can be taught to fly an airplane. Let's not delude ourselves, it's not rocket science. It doesn't require any particularly hard to find skills, unlike being an ATC for example, which requires a very special kind of person. Or a doctor or any other job which the average joe on the street could not do. Being a pilot is more about opportunity (luck, timing, how much money you have) than it is about being an exceptional person.

A good pilot does require hard to find skills. You may be able to get a new guy through the the flight test but that is one reason why starting salaries are the way they are, he has proven nothing at this point. We hear about the airplane crashes on the news once in awhile, you never hear about the guys who save the day, daily! Common sense, a cool head, the ability to lead, reason and motivate people are skills that are hard to teach and are not covered in flight school, yet a requirement for pilots. No average Joe off the street is capable of doing our job. Not trying to be mean but judging by your post, I question your experience level.

3. This will probably get me in trouble, but the general mentality of pilots is pretty trades orientated with all the talk about "work ethics". Professionals don't need to spout off about "work ethics" and "positive attitudes", it's just assumed you got them. "Work ethic" and "positive attitude" - that's high school or low-level hourly worker talk.

This one is pretty self explanatory, I wouldn't use that quote in a job interview if I were you.

4. Also note that the airliners are becoming more and more automated (less skill to fly) and a lot of the Captain's authority has been stripped from him and put in the hands of people on the ground. That de-skilling does lead to lower pay.

This one is incredible. Having flown the steam stuff as well as the nintendo stuff, I can tell you that automation does not equal less skill. It is simply a different skill and if truth be told, an added skill because a "good" pilot will remain proficient at flying with both the automation on as well as automation off. "Automation Kills" have you heard that term? Trust me, it is an added skill set.

People keep comparing pilots to doctors in the starting wage argument. I doubt many here have done 36 hr shifts on the hospital floor during an internship. If you are going to use that argument then make your doctor a Veterinarian.

[Cat Driver]

This one is incredible. Having flown the steam stuff as well as the nintendo stuff, I can tell you that automation does not equal less skill. It is simply a different skill and if truth be told, an added skill because a "good" pilot will remain proficient at flying with both the automation on as well as automation off. "Automation Kills" have you heard that term? Trust me, it is an added skill set.

This got me to thinking......

....about which was more demanding....hand flying a DC6 into Coppermine after an ADF approach and getting the ice strip visual with a crappy low ceiling in blowing snow and a vicious X/wind.....

...or monitoring a Boeing on an auto land arrival?

Of course there are some differences, you should know the difference between BMEP and EPR, just in case you have to hand fly a missed..

[Liquid Charlie]

So are you saying that you expect more than what you pay for

I think most expect us to act professionally and not throw immature tantrums.

Hey Cat -- all that is gone now FMS ya know -- any ice strip can have a precision approach(VFR of course) -- OMG -- did I say home brew approach -- well slap my pee pee


There's a new poll -- how many on this site have seen a BMEP gauge

[Jaques Strappe]

Hey Cat................or hand flying an Airbus in direct law on an ADF approach, something it was not intended to do.

Cat, I flew the DC9 like that daily it was well suited for it and like anything else, practice makes perfect. As you well know, an experienced DC6 driver would not find that difficult. Put the same DC6 driver into a glass airplane with everything working, he will likely have trouble. We see this sometimes in the simulator when we hire high time "steam" guys. I personally found it to be like learning a new language.

Then give him 5 black screens, a compass and 3 inch stby indicator, may feel back in his element but I guarantee you, he will be sweating when he gets on the ground.

Which brings up another point, situational awareness. Not sure if Kelowna Pilot has been on the highway lately and witnessed first hand, the "situational awareness" of the "average Joe" as he pilots his minivan down the highway oblivious to his surroundings.

[Cat Driver]

Hey Cat................or hand flying an Airbus in direct law on an ADF approach, something it was not intended to do.

Aaahhh good response, but how often does the average airline pilot do that outside of the Sim?

The scenario I put forward in the DC6 was a routine expectation of a northern crew in the DC6.

I personally found glass to be easier to get situational awareness from than steam....but we all have different wiring when it comes to these issues.

However the reality here is we are using mental masturbation as an entertainment game here......no one really is totally correct in these back and forth things.

[Kelowna Pilot]

I don't know of any "Airline Captains" with a grade two education. Most airlines require a degree.

As far as I know, the only major airlines in the world that 'require' a degree are the US Major airlines.

Cat driver has stated that he has Grade 8. He flew 767s. Did he crash the plane?

A good pilot does require hard to find skills. You may be able to get a new guy through the the flight test but that is one reason why starting salaries are the way they are, he has proven nothing at this point. We hear about the airplane crashes on the news once in awhile, you never hear about the guys who save the day, daily! Common sense, a cool head, the ability to lead, reason and motivate people are skills that are hard to teach and are not covered in flight school, yet a requirement for pilots. No average Joe off the street is capable of doing our job. Not trying to be mean but judging by your post, I question your experience level.

Starting salaries are mainly a function of supply and demand, as are the starting salaries of experienced new hires at Air Canada, or any other major airline in North America... Secretaries make more money...

First, the 'average Joe' is actually quite capable (let's not put him down), but look at it this way:

If the average pilot in Canada didn't become a pilot, where would he be in life?

Would he be in an elite level job (captains of industry, senior finance, doctors, judges, scientists...).

Some would, but let's be honest... the vast majority would not.

Sorry if I'm shattering any delusions of grandeur some pilots have, but let's have reality check here.

This one is pretty self explanatory, I wouldn't use that quote in a job interview if I were you.

Of course a pilot in a job interview would be a fool not to talk about 'positive attitudes' and 'work ethic' and the fact that he's 'good at showing up on time'.

That's because pilots are judged as hourly-paid worker bees, and pilots are expected to conform to the culture and value system of the hourly-paid worker bee.

This one is incredible. Having flown the steam stuff as well as the nintendo stuff, I can tell you that automation does not equal less skill. It is simply a different skill and if truth be told, an added skill because a "good" pilot will remain proficient at flying with both the automation on as well as automation off. "Automation Kills" have you heard that term? Trust me, it is an added skill set.

Fair enough, but could an 'Average Joe' person not be trained to become proficient in the Steam and Nintendo stuff? Of course it requires skill, but it's nothing an Average Joe with a strong interest in aviation could not be trained to do.

It's unlikely, though, that an 'Average Joe' could become a surgeon in modern hospital because the Average Joe just doesn't have the built-in capacity or wherewithal to get to a position like that.

Cat's right, though, this is just all mental masturbation... so need to get angry anyone

[MrWings]

A pilot is a skilled and specialized job for sure. But so is a gas plant, grader or crane operator.

An average joe can't come off the street and do those jobs inherently. But he can be trained to do them.

Are there wanna-be pilots that took up flight training and just couldn't get the hang of it and dropped out? I suppose so. But they'd probably fail at other similar jobs too.

If there were lots of people wanting to work at McDonalds, they would get minimum wage. But it is a sucky job so they have to increase the salary to entice.

Like I said in a previous thread, flying is cool and there are lots that want to do it. The companies that are sick of losing people every 6 months have increased their wages. The ones that keep paying minimum will keep getting burned. You get what you pay for.

[Jaques Strappe]

You guys should read your posts...........there lies the answers as to why the aviation salaries are too low.

I am not putting down the "average Joe" but when you say any idiot with a grade 2 education can be an airline pilot, well my friend, you just put down everyone in this forum.

Good luck with your quest to raise the bar.

[Cat Driver]

but when you say any idiot with a grade 2 education can be an airline pilot, well my friend, you just put down everyone in this forum.

I feel slighted because I went to school for another six years, I hope I didn't wast those years for no good reason.

[Jaques Strappe]

Cat Driver

Glad to see you have a sense of humor and take things tongue and cheek.

After I was reading about how a Doctor is so much more skilled than a pilot, I started to wonder about how many Doctors have killed themselves while attempting to fly.

[Flying Nutcracker]

Remember... the industry is what it is today because of all those hardworking souls in years past who made sacrifice after sacrifice so that we can whine about how little we make, compared to the skills we possess!

It wouldn't hurt to carry on the tradition of standing out in the crowd as "pioneers" ourselves in the sense that we continue the legacy of always looking for improvement so that our future peers have something to build on... but to do so, there has to be an idealistic view among the crowd to better the future.

No good comes out of whining! Effort leads to results. Pilots just need to figure out what the word "effort" means!

Or is it all about numero ego uno after all???

FN

[MrWings]

I am not putting down the "average Joe" but when you say any idiot with a grade 2 education can be an airline pilot, well my friend, you just put down everyone in this forum.

Jaques, you missed the point.

There is NO education requirement to become a pilot. You don't need to be an elementary, high school, college or university grad to fly. I'm sure there have been a few pilots that never went to any kind of school.

But you do need skills well beyond that of the 2nd grade. Perhaps the misundestanding comes in your evaluation of Average Joe's capabilities. No one called him an idiot except you.

[Strega]

Remember... the industry is what it is today because of all those hardworking souls in years past who made sacrifice after sacrifice so that we can whine about how little we make, compared to the skills we possess!

It wouldn't hurt to carry on the tradition of standing out in the crowd as "pioneers" ourselves in the sense that we continue the legacy of always looking for improvement so that our future peers have something to build on... but to do so, there has to be an idealistic view among the crowd to better the future.

No good comes out of whining! Effort leads to results. Pilots just need to figure out what the word "effort" means!

Or is it all about numero ego uno after all???

FN

Well said!

As I said earilier, if you are unhappy with your wage/working conditions etc, then TELL YOUR BOSS!

If you think an offerered wage/working condition etc is bad, then DONT TAKE THE JOB!

in order for things to improve for others in the future, Change needs to start with you!

[Bede]

Some of you need to get some friends outside of aviation. That post about washing airplanes and doctors not having to do it made me laugh. I met a paediatric respirologist resident who told me he routinely works 24-30 hr shift without sleep and does this 1 day on, 1 day off. If he has a problem, he calls his preceptor (sr. doctor) who is at home and tells him what to do over the phone. New lawyers typically work 70-80 hr weeks looking doing crap research for some sr. lawyer. If they work hard enough, they get paid well and eventually make partner; not willing to put in the time, they're fired. Meet PhD folks: after 10-12 years of university, they fight over getting a post doctoral fellowship worth about $40K, then they might become professors making $70K topping out at $90K.

My two years having to wash airplanes, help in the hanger weren't that bad. It makes me appreciate my cushy high paying job at Jazz.