Importing Experimental A/C from US.

[Dobs]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever imported an experimental A/C from the US and if so, how long did the bureaucracy take, the fees, customs, etc. Does anyone have any experiences to relate or issues that should be known for someone who is considering such an import.

Specifically, I like the Rutan designed Long EZE's and feel that may be a satisfactory choice for a personal a/c. I'd appreciate any thoughts or comments.

Cheers...

[2R]

http://www.eaa.org

There are lots of chapters in Canada .They fly everthing .They would fly the kitchen sink if you let them

[Dobs]

Thanks, I'll expand upon this a bit. How about importing any a/c from the US. I'm doing research on the technicalities, but I'm curious about the stories, the experiences. Anyone care to share?

[Invertago]

Personal experience, if you import from the US it gets pricey. Expect to nearly double the cost on a typical general aviation production aircraft, not sure about a homebuilt though, might be less red tape. Two examples, C150, purchased at just under 30k, cost 21k worth of importation fees, paperwork, taxes, maintainence replacing perfectly good components with new components just because of missing paperwork. Another, purchased a 50k C172 and spend 40k on the importation process. So, rule of thumb, just double the cost to error on the conservative side. Again this is for certified a/c experimentals may be different since they are home built. Personally, just buy the quick build kit, take one of those builder assist programs and get the thing built yourself in a few months. You'll know your a/c inside and out then too.

[Dobs]

Wow, double eh? So much for looking up planes in the states.

I'm not certain of the homebuilts either, but as for building one of my own. I tried building a model tank when I was a kid... that didn't turn out so well. I'm not excited at the prospect of building something I'll be trusting lives with. Not to mention karma of course. I'm thinking boats, remote controlled boats. I can work my way up.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it.

Cheers...

[rigpiggy]

Forget it, if you talk to TC, they'll tell you no import of completed kitplanes, AULA, or LSA maybe different. an unfinished kit would be allowed however you'd still have to do 51%

[Strega]

Personal experience, if you import from the US it gets pricey. Expect to nearly double the cost on a typical general aviation production aircraft, not sure about a homebuilt though, might be less red tape. Two examples, C150, purchased at just under 30k, cost 21k worth of importation fees, paperwork, taxes, maintainence replacing perfectly good components with new components just because of missing paperwork. Another, purchased a 50k C172 and spend 40k on the importation process. So, rule of thumb, just double the cost to error on the conservative side. Again this is for certified a/c experimentals may be different since they are home built. Personally, just buy the quick build kit, take one of those builder assist programs and get the thing built yourself in a few months. You'll know your a/c inside and out then too.

If you do your homework, and know exactly what you are getting into, the only expense you will have is the "import" expenses, ie GST on the sale price, C of A and C of R fee, and an "import" or basicly an annual inspection.

When you import a certified plane, you need to ensure all STCs are presant (if applicable) and that all installed equip has paperwork to back it up- heres the catch, generally an FAA 337 "field approval" will be rejected by tc. Again I stress, do your homework.

[Hedley]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/OntarioRegion/civil ... mateur.htm

http://www.tc.gc.ca/OntarioRegion/civil ... cklist.doc

[Pavese]

If you do your homework, and know exactly what you are getting into, the only expense you will have is the "import" expenses, ie GST on the sale price, C of A and C of R fee, and an "import" or basicly an annual inspection.

When you import a certified plane, you need to ensure all STCs are presant (if applicable) and that all installed equip has paperwork to back it up- heres the catch, generally an FAA 337 "field approval" will be rejected by tc. Again I stress, do your homework.

Strega is closest to the mark.

We imported a 152 a year ago June & the added expenses were about what he said, essentially an annual and a bit more digging to verify conformity with the type certificate. This cost the price of the annual plus the cost of an airworthiness delegate ($1500 - 2k??) to prepare & submit the importation documentation. It's nowhere near twice the price unless you go asking for trouble.

The number one rule is NEVER try to import something with 337s (FAA field approval for modifications) unless the 337 is supporting a (Canadian recognized) STC or worse, mods with NO supporting documentation (!) you could wind up with a world of pain exorcising the unapproved modifications from the A/C.

Stay away from an A/C that doesn't have logs back to day one and when you inspect the logs make sure all of the hour or time limited maint. is done. We caught a relatively minor issue of altimeter encoder cal on the pre-buy but I know of a 182 where they overlooked a prop overhaul. The overhaul would have been $500 less than a new prop so now they have a shiny new prop and a conversation piece for the den.

Have a thorough annual done as a pre-buy inspection and get an import C of A based on the annual and you'll save $ on the importation inspection.

COPA has a pretty good document on their site on the subject but don't take every word as gospel and DO ask many questions. Do your homework. Get the owner to fly the plane to Canada and save a lot of pain with buracracy.

OK, that covers certified and some of the angles for Experimental. Experimental has other issues though. One is that an Experimental with less than 100 hours on it CANNOT be imported unless you want to open up all the closed sections for inspection. After 100 hours they must figure it is demonstrated as safe..........

If an unfinished kit does not have sections closed yet then it's fair game to import as long as it's on the 51% list.

Well, there's a bit more to think about but as Strega says, do your homework it'll pay big dividends.

D

'79 C-152
'TBD Murphy Elite

[Dobs]

Thanks for the information, I'm glad to see that it isn't as prohibitive as it appeared. I'll be doing more investigating and will take your experience to heart.

Thanks for the assistance.

Dobs...

[Jungle Jim]

Hedley your info was great, but I need to know the details. For instance I'm looking at a Thorp T-18 in Nevada. If I go there and pay the guy, I am a Cdn pilot in the US that will need to fly the beast home. Questions that come to mind are:
1) Insurance for the flight?
2) Will I be allowed to fly in the US in a US registered plane with a Cdn licence?
3) I don't believe I can duct tape Cdn registration markings before it has passed the import inspection on the Cdn side of the border. probably can't even apply for the markings.
3) When I land on the Cdn side I know Canada Customs and the tax guys will be there to greet me.
4) Can I fly it home with a US registration from the port of entry without a Cdn special C of A and R?
5) Do I need another type of insurance from the border to home base?

These are the immediate questions that come to mind.

Jim

[Hedley]

I'm looking at a Thorp T-18 in Nevada. If I go there and pay the guy

You can't do that, because as soon as you purchase the
aircraft, the C of R is invalid because you are not eligible
to be the owner of a USA aircraft.

Easy way to do this is to have you and the owner fly
together up to Canada. BE UP FRONT WITH CUSTOMS
that the aircraft will be remaining in Canada. Pay a broker
to do the paperwork for you. They will meet you at the
first Cdn airport you land at, and will deal with Customs.
You can try to do it yourself, but I really really doubt
that's the best choice, if you're asking questions here.

Ok, so the aircraft is in Canada. You are still legal because
the aircraft is still registered to the seller. You land at
your home airport. Then, you perform the transaction
of the sale. At that point, the aircraft cannot fly any
more, but that doesn't matter because it's in your
hangar, and you can do the import on it there. Now,
put the seller on an airliner and send him home.

Can't do the above? Too bad, it's the slickest, and
is perfectly legal - you use his C of R, C of A and
insurance for the trip to your hangar.

Next easiest is probably to get a truck, and a
trailer. Drive down there, take the wings off
it, put it on the trailer and hope it doesn't get
too damaged on the drive home.

Next easiest is to arrange for a "provisional"
C of R from Transport (groan) but the tricky
bit is a provisional C of A (flight permit). Transport
will likely insist that you have a USA DAR issue an
export C of A, but no DAR is going to want to touch
a homebuilt. If you have the patience of Job,
you can try this paperwork nightmare route,
but personally I would truck it home instead -
less hassle.

Note about the Cdn markings ... apply TODAY
for custom letters. It costs something stupid
like $100. This has two purposes ... one is
that you get letters that you like - you're going
to say them an awful lot of times - and the
other is that you enter the aircraft information
into the Cdn database. Don't misunderstand -
this RESERVATION of marks is NOT a C of R,
but at least you know what the marks will
be for the C of R.

When the aircraft is in your hangar, notify
the FAA (I use AOPA to do this) that the
aircraft is being de-registered for the purposes
of being registered in Canada as the reserved
marks above. The FAA will fax the notice of
this to Transport, who can then activate the
reserved marks as an actual C of R, which
they issue to you. You can put the letters on.
Actually, you can put the letters on BEFORE
the C of R is issued (just don't fly it!) because
you have reserved them. Well worth the $100.

Now that you have the C- marks on the aircraft,
and a C of R, you can pursue a C of A (or whatever
other flight authority you want).

One comment about custom marks ... enough
with the initials, ok? We all get the vanity tag
thing, guys, and it gets old when it's sold to
the next fellow.

[CID]

heres the catch, generally an FAA 337 "field approval" will be rejected by tc.

The number one rule is NEVER try to import something with 337s (FAA field approval for modifications) unless the 337 is supporting a (Canadian recognized) STC or worse, mods with NO supporting documentation (!)

Not so anymore.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/certi ... review.htm

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/certi ... s/TCCA.htm

This policy is a step backward in my opinion and I hope that it will be reversed.

[Hedley]

CID: I have great respect for your obvious knowledge
and intelligence, but ...

Why do you think that the country of manufacture of
an aircraft is incapable of determining airworthiness of
modifications to said aircraft?

Do you think that all USA-manufactured (but un-modified)
aircraft are "junk" (your previous word), too?

I lack your perspective, but your attitude smells of
parochial bias. Don't get me wrong, I love to chant
"I Am Canadian" and drink Labatts and eat back
bacon as much as the next guy, but the attitude of
"Americans can't do anything right, we can't do
anything wrong" gets tiresome.

[CID]

Hedley, I'll simply say that the FAA field approval process is flawed. The FAA knows that. This new TC policy introduces a flawed policy that creates ambiguity (what is the type design of such an airplane) and when will Canadian repair stations scream for a level playing field?

[Jungle Jim]

Hedley,

Thanks for clear consice explanation. Just what I'd expect from a fellow engineer. Unless the seller is willing to fly to this side of the border I'll have to limit prospective planes to ones closer to the border to make it viable to trailer them accross.

Thanks again,

Jim

[WhatHeSaid]

I imported an Experimental (amateur-built) from the US a couple of years ago.. not too much hassle at all. I got a ferry permit/temporary C of A from TC and flew it up on Canadian Reg. No broker needed.
If you need a chat PM me.
Chris

[SeptRepair]

Another point to beware of is the PST if you live in BC. Not sure if other provinces have this rule. Ironically there is no PST on turbine powered aircraft, but piston there is. The local transport registrar will not issue a C of R until they have confirmation the PST has been paid.

[Hedley]

Lotta aircraft registered in AB, I see on the registry

P.S. SeptRepair, you still pissed at me about the "bald
tire" argument? Have we kissed and made up again yet?

P.P.S. Congrats on getting the provisional C of R
and ferry permit for a homebuilt! For some reason,
I seem to frequently get different answers from Transport
than other people do ... for example,

"Can I participate in this airshow as per CAR 623.06(1)(c)(i)(A)
and/or CAR 623.06(1)(c)(i)(B)?"

The answer is a permanent "no".

Or: "Can I import a Pitts S-2C? It has the same type
certificate number and production type certificate number
as the S-2B and S-2A, which are already on the Cdn registry?"

Answer: "No". But then I see that someone in Alberta
has got an S-2C on the Cdn registry now. Hm.