Beaver incident in Nanaimo?

[FOwithBO]

REALLY PEOPLE, we know its bad when a company with 35-40 pilots gets a union. All the power to them with the union to make things safer and better.

[Cat Driver]

Jeses what is wrong with some 703 operators in this region?

This accident is really difficult to understand, why would a high time west coast pilot get into such a dangerous situation, is it because of a combination of intimidation to get the trips done regardless by management that finally caused this guy to push it too far?

Anyhow widow we know it is not because of poor oversight by Dave Nowzek and his cronies because he keeps saying that his region is one of the safest in the world.

[Cat Driver]

All the power to them with the union to make things safer and better.

There is something dreadfully wrong with aviation when you guys feel that a union is the way to ensure safety.

[FOwithBO]

Catdriver I agree, but EVEN 18,000 pilots can feel the squeezes of "Office Space"-like boss's that say, "ahhhh yeah, looks kinda like an in between day today.. yeah. Why don't you go ahead now and just give her a look.....yeah"

&%#$@!!!!!!!! Piss's me off!!!

[Cat Driver]

Catdriver I agree, but EVEN 18,000 pilots can feel the squeezes of "Office Space"-like boss's that say, "ahhhh yeah, looks kinda like an in between day today.. yeah. Why don't you go ahead now and just give her a look.....yeah"

I can not comment on why this pilot got caught in a situation that resulted in this ending.

But if I had my way every God Damned boss who was found guilty of intimidation of his/her crews would be put in jail where they belong.

I have seen this type of criminal behavior in this industry for over fifty years and nothing ever seems to change...it is just plain fu.kin disgusting.

[viccoastdog]

I tip my hat to a many pilots who flew there and did it safely and with dignity.

Me too, and I also tip my hat to this group...

Bad weather day, the smarter, younger pilots stayed put and waited it out

[viccoastdog]

I heard from a WCA pilot they took it apart and trucked it to CR.

... I heard differently. Perhaps my source is mistaken.

Or perhaps mine is...he didn't see it moved by truck 'first hand'

[FOwithBO]

Well Catdriver, I have seen unions instill safety where it has lacked. What do you recommend to deal with evil employers? Just trying to negotiate with them?!

[Cat Driver]

What do you recommend to deal with evil employers?

Refuse to be intimidated, if they keep trying to intimidate you, quit.

That is what I did and it has worked very well for me.

[FOwithBO]

Yeah, well you musta had a lot of jobs. Easier said than done brother. I've never been intimidated, nor pushed into flying when I knew it was wrong. But that still doesnt cover mistreatment in wages, cutting people out of upgrades, cutting back on benefits etc. If a union helps keep WCA managment in check, all the power to those pilots.

[Cat Driver]

Yeah, well you musta had a lot of jobs. Easier said than done brother.

There were times when quitting cost me money, however I would rather lose money than my life.

You can save yourself a lot of trouble by not accepting a job from companies with poor track records, generally the companies who screw their employees over are well known in the industry. Of course there will be times when you end up working for a less than satisfactory employer, that is when it is time to find something else.

If a union helps keep WCA managment in check, all the power to those pilots.

Unions can help there is no doubt, but don't get your hopes to high because when it comes to your safety and your own satisfaction at work it is still up to you to look out for you.

[FOwithBO]

Hmmmmm. I agree with you, but I honestly believe in what goes around, comes around. WCA has dished out alot of corn gravy, and now it's pouring back on them with a Union. Do you think those guys want to pay the extra Union dues each month and all the other stuff that comes along with it? I doubt it, but at least they might get some power back.

You also have to understand that people in power, such as VERY high time Captains will do whatever they like This topic isnt as easy as you seem to put into words. Have you ever flown with someone who went against your will into a dangerous situation? Its a thousand times harder than any V1 cut, double gen failure, smoke in the cockpit....scenario that we could ever deal with, than dealing with a CRM issue where the Skipper next to you is going to do it because his "4 strips says he can." Thats why I want to see some of these old buggers get a kick straight in the bagpipes.

[viccoastdog]

I've never been intimidated, nor pushed into flying when I knew it was wrong. But that still doesnt cover mistreatment in wages, cutting people out of upgrades, cutting back on benefits etc.

You're drifting off topic - the company is apparently run by morons...agreed, but this thread isn't about wages, benefits or upgrades etc. It's about what may have been very poor decision making by the PIC in a single crew plane when there would appear to have been many safer alternatives..and if it comes down to it, quiting IS one of those alternatives

[twotter]

Other pilots have hit pilings with the wings of Twin Otters and flew 2 or 3 legs before mis-reporting it as a bird strike, over torqued engines on a DHC6, and banged and bumped DHC6 tails and wingtips all winter, but nothing done about that............

Jack, you forgot about Beavers hitting pilings, Otter props and boats!! They seem to have had a few problems in the last year.

And is it just me or are the old Baxter machines looking like crap these days?

[jet33]

the pilots getting pushed around,intimidated and fired in some cases
because they were trying to be safe!
How bad do you think its got to be when the maintenance crew is looking at a union aswell?
they have it just as bad or worse then the pilots
half of them don't even understand how our country works!
let alone feeling obligated to staying with the company that brought them into the country
and now there importing 2 more because they can't get anybody else to work for them?!
the guys don't get raises, can't touch there bank time and can't get holidays very easily
for you young pilots....there are alot of other GOOD company's out there that are hiring
don't fall in this trap called WCA
nad you maintenance guys
there are fore sure much better jobs out there
trust me

[jet33]

lets not forget about taking off after a prop strike, hitting 3 other aircraft at the richmond dock in the last 6 months!

[Cat Driver]

You also have to understand that people in power,

I understand far better than you could ever imagine.

such as VERY high time Captains will do whatever they like This topic isnt as easy as you seem to put into words.

Generally speaking the type of captain you are describing can only find employment with companies that are also outlaws. Once again you are the master of your own destiny and only you can determine where your destiny is.

Have you ever flown with someone who went against your will into a dangerous situation?

I've flown with a few who tried, but only once.

Its a thousand times harder than any V1 cut, double gen failure, smoke in the cockpit....scenario that we could ever deal with,
than dealing with a CRM issue where the Skipper next to you is going to do it because his "4 strips says he can." Thats why I want to see some of these old buggers get a kick straight in the bagpipes.

Settle down and listen to me for a minute, you are getting all worked up over something you can not really change for the simple reason these outlaw companies will burn you in a heart beat and side with the captain because it is the captain who decides when, where, how, and why their airplanes will fly.

If you feel any captain is unsafe...don't fly with them.

[snoopy]

FOwithBO,

What makes you think all the 4-bars are old buggers requiring "a kick straight in the bagpipes?"

How do you think it is for a conscientious captain when an FO constantly trys to undermine them and has the support of the company? Do you think it creates good CRM? Do you think it doesn't happen?

Do you think all the risk-taking curmudgeons are old and crusty? Did you know that occasionally new people - often with little experience - are climbing into the left seat, and its happening more and more? Do you think they never risk the lives of their crew and passengers with bad decision-making, bad airmanship, bad CRM and bad manners?

There's a whole lot of humans out there - some with 3-bars, and some with 4-bars and some with none - sometimes they're exercising their humanity in the flightdeck, and sometimes they're not.

I'm don't think Cat needs to understand anything - he's made his position quite clear. Perhaps you need to broaden your understanding a bit? Just a thought.

Cheers,
Snoopy

[FOwithBO]

Snoop dawg, I am not generalizing ALL older captains. But, for the most part, the worst ones are the older ones, because they have been doing their old tricks for years in float flying. Its just hasnt caught up to them all of them yet. I'll tell both of you this, I've never undermined my co-workers, I've only treated them with respect. But to see "some" of them return it by trying to be company hero is crap, especially to the less experienced ones that dont have the recognition from management.

Cat, you make it sound just too easy. Im speaking for the others out there that have seen $hit that you necessarliy havent. Easy for you to sit there and say after thousands of hours all mightily, I tell em' like it is! BULL$HIT, then you've been flying single pilot your entire career and havent seen enough 2 crew crap that really can go on. And to this day, the worst of it I have ever seen was at WCA.

[Cat Driver]

Cat, you make it sound just too easy.

Where did I say it was easy?

Im speaking for the others out there that have seen $hit that you necessarliy havent.

You are deluding yourself, I have seen $hit you never dreamed about.

Easy for you to sit there and say after thousands of hours all mightily, I tell em' like it is! BULL$HIT, then you've been flying single pilot your entire career and havent seen enough 2 crew crap that really can go on.

Before you go leaping to such dumb conclusions let me tell you something.

I have more time on two crew airplanes than you are likely to see in the next forty years and I have flown two crew on airplanes I'm betting you wouldn't recognize if you seen one. By the way a very small percentage of my two crew time was as an F.O. most of it was as captain, and I'm old...the kind you look down on.

Here is a hint.....I was chief pilot for Air West Airlines in 1974/75 and set up their Twin Otter IFR operation on floats out of Vancouver, I also set up their SOP's on the Twin Otter on floats which included PMA.

I am finished with this conversation because I am getting the feeling you are either very inexperienced or you are more the problem in an airplane than the captains you are slagging.

And to this day, the worst of it I have ever seen was at WCA.

That your first job as a F.O.?

[FOwithBO]

Cat, "you have seen more than I can imagine", ..................so I guess you zero'd in everyone you flew with that tried to do something dangerous? Sounds like a great dream, I hope I have one of those someday.

Bottom line is that WCA, is cognizant about one, and only one thing. Making money at the expense of everything else. So safety suffers and they end up losing more moeny because of it. As the gentleman mentioned in an earlier post, but I forget his handle, they even import foriegn (awesome guys by the way) workers to try to pay them less, and control them more because they are new to the country.

[FOwithBO]

Key word there you mentioned, MOST of it was Captain. Limited FO time, the perspective is alot different, you should know that with all your GODLY experience.

Cat, I fly with, respect, learn from, and look up to older pilots everyday I go to work. All Im saying is that the worst and most dangerous bandits I have flown with were "mature" float/bush operators, and alot of it was at WCA. Thats it , scuffle over.


Peace, happiness, and clap your hands.

[viccoastdog]

Respectfully, perhaps I wasn't clear enough before, BUT YOU'RE DRIFTING OFF TOPIC (Both Mr. 'Driver' and Mr. 'with BO'). Let's bring this thread back to where it began because there is a real need to find out what transpired with this accident or incident.

This is too busy a float-equipped 703 (and I guess sort of 704) area to not to find out what happened and to try to prevent it from happening again.

[Cat Driver]

because there is a real need to find out what transpired with this accident or incident.

This is too busy a float-equipped 703 (and I guess sort of 704) area to not to find out what happened and to try to prevent it from happening again.

Agreed, but the track record for finding out what happens is very poor.

And therein lies one of the real problems in 703 operations, it is very difficult to get the truth in most of these accidents and the wheel just keeps on turning.

[FOwithBO]

Viccoastdog, your request is understood. But what I am saying through all these threads is the root of the problem. Managment is indirectly causing these incidents and accidents. How? By taking the easy and cheap route, upgrading or hiring too many under qualified pilots, hiring managers that are unresponsible and unaccountable and it comes out through situations like the one in Naniamo. It sounds like TC will put blame on the pilot, and so he/ she should be accountable for their actions, but the root of the problem is the owner. How do all these incidents get cured, it doesnt as long as the owner continues to own, or they finally realize their bussiness is at stake.