Beaver incident in Nanaimo?

[Widow]

I'd get my head bitten off for saying that Cat. But we know it's true. How many pax? What kind of plane? Can anyone sue? Buried.

[trey kule]

Viccoastdog wrote:

because there is a real need to find out what transpired with this accident or incident.

If there is such a real need to find out what happened, then why dont we all sit back for a few days and wait until the facts can be clarified rather than this whisper, whisper, slag, speculate and gossip?

Lets wait a little while for the facts. It seems many hear enjoying slagging anyone, from the poor buggers at wesjet who had an incident the other day to this pilot. Eating our own might be good for some loser's ego, but we can really learn nothing without all the facts.

[viccoastdog]

Viccoastdog, your request is understood. But what I am saying through all these threads is the root of the problem. Managment is indirectly causing these incidents and accidents. How? By taking the easy and cheap route, upgrading or hiring too many under qualified pilots, hiring managers that are unresponsible and unaccountable and it comes out through situations like the one in Naniamo. It sounds like TC will put blame on the pilot, and so he/ she should be accountable for their actions, but the root of the problem is the owner. How do all these incidents get cured, it doesnt as long as the owner continues to own, or they finally realize their bussiness is at stake.

Hmm, yes the Accountable Executive (and therefore the company and its managers etc) is of course ultimately responsible for the carriers actions. Indeed, a company can inculcate an atmosphere of fear and oppression that can make work almost intolerable or they can provide an atmosphere of respect and a spirit of teamwork that can make a company profitable in what is really a ridiculously hard way to make a profit.

Let's follow this through to see if we can pick up any information on how the company-in-question's rapport with its employees may have contributed to what could have been an 18 000 hour pilot's worst decision of his career.

If there is such a real need to find out what happened, then why dont we all sit back for a few days and wait until the facts can be clarified rather than this whisper, whisper, slag, speculate and gossip?

Yes, you're quite right. But this happened on Monday and it's now Thursday (pushing Friday), so it would seem events are taking their time to come to the surface. The only info so far available is from other WCA employees.

[Jack Sparrow]

Well kids, you have touched on it, bandied about it, but not hit the nail on the head yet, as to why all these events seemed to have ocurr at WCA.

Lets look and see who the Beaver training pilot is at WCA?

Guess what, there ins'tone. Yup, your right. Nada. None.

The CP had blonde hair and lots of it when he last flew a Beaver. Now he recites each landing and when in bed, "Props on the touch", "Props on the touch" as he only flys Twin Otters and has for 20,000+ Hours, solong he can't remember if they ever madeanother model of plane.
To his credit,a nice guy,well meaning, and if you wear a skirt, your an automatic Captain In Training till front office finds out.

But back to topic, are Beaver pilots properly trained by an experienced pilot from the area?
No.
Are pilots given an actual ground school with the real alloted time prescribed by their Ops Manual?
No.
Do the pilots routinely receive line indoc and TC required training to places where prior permission require special training?
No.
Have there been numerous incidents where pilots got in trouble because they were not properly trained?
YES.
Did Transport ever do anything about it?
No.
Did Transport ever read internal incident reports the company has and takeany action?
No.
In Lieu of transport ever looking closely at the operation,has the Ops Manager who is in supreme control of the operation according to the Ops Manual ever flown a Beaver?
No.
Has the ops Manager ever worked in General Aviation and in particular seaplane services prior to this job?
No.
Is prior GA experience and familiarity with this type of an operation a requirement to become an Operations Manager in Part 703 or 704?
YES. You read TC website and tell me...............
Is this operation's accountable executive, a requirment of TC, being responsible in maintaining a safe operation concerning public safety?

DON'T TELL ME, Look at the record, ask Transport Canada.

What, no answer from Commercial and Business Aviation Pacific Region when you called? Its because they have left the office hastily, to hide from any possibility of making any decision that really effects root system safety.................BECAUSE......are you ready for this,

According to system safety protocols, the operation should police itself and write up its deficiencies,make a plan for rectification, discuss the matter with its "Persons Responsible" and take necessary remedial action yet, bare no ill will to those that have failed and continue to fail miserably at running the company as the system isnot to find guilt, only seek rectification to the appropriate standard.

Ah yes, but then the Ops Manager does not know what to do because he has never had a real job in GA,nor understands
how a seaplane or its business works.

Alas,in the total absence of learned daily, weekly,yearly oversight,
the pilots of WCA cobble together their best efforts to operate under "PILOT SELF DISPATCH", and do it as safe as they can.
Sometimes they fail. But since there's nobody to help them, all we can do is slag the hell out of this forum in hopes somebody notices, there'snobody at the F*ckin* helm of WCA.................not even an ACCOUNTABLE EXECUTIVE.............as defined by the CARs.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Capn Jack Sparrow has finally had enough of this topic.

[Cat Driver]

AAhhh...Captain Jack, to bring TC into this discussion is truly a waste of time...

...TC has long ago left the room and haven't the faintest idea of what goes on in 703 operations.....

....I can see west coast float plane operations getting worse...much worse.

If only the general public really knew the level of dysfunction that exists in this area even in companies flying twin engine airplanes, the poster child for examination at the moment just might be this company.

[Sea Trout]

I'm sorry as I realize I'm a little off topic, but is Harbour Air any better or for that matter was Baxter. Also do you think WCA will change?

[schinook]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
The topic is sliding off a bit. This was a very serious incident that may have resulted in loss of life. I'm very surprised TC has not been made aware either by the company or the pilot; which they are legally required to do. If not, then a significant violation in air safety has occured and one would expect a review of WCA's operating license. I'm even more astonished that the media haven't picked up this story, considering there were revenue pax on board. I sincerely hope this story is getting out to the right authorities.

Remember SonicBlue...

[SDflyer]

Lets look and see who the Beaver training pilot is at WCA?

Guess what, there ins'tone. Yup, your right. Nada. None.

They are probably better off without a Beaver training captain than the past "Beaver training captain" (who we will not name) that not only made for unsafe conditions by holding down the control column on take-off with passengers for instance while not having a valid medical himself, etc, etc. You are also totally correct about the Ops manager at WCA, hes supposedly an ex-military F18 pilot but if there is even the slightest hint of a conflict I'm sure he'd be the one to duck under his desk and suck on his thumb.

With about 20000hrs of bush flying to have only 1 major accident, I'd call that an accomplishment. In this type of case if it were to happen to any less of an experienced pilot there are way worse things that could have happened than a damaged plane and a few rattled pax. Its amazing he was even able to land with the elevator hanging off and the control column jammed, so kudos to the pilot for making a safe landing.

[Bulawrench]

No cudos to the pilot. I like the adaptation of cowboy. Just a cocky bugger that made poor choices. I believe most other operators are doing a good job. It is this redneck owner that needs to go. Just an uncontrolled crash that didn't need to happen.What is next body parts in the trees? Thirty day suspension of their operating certificate is a start. Enough is enough. Yes, the Baxter planes are looking like crap. That didn't take long did it.

[Cat Driver]

In defense of Baxter I would like to say that regardless of what anyone thought of Tom and Linda their airplanes were well maintained and always looked first class.

And if there was something that needed fixing it got fixed.

[Dog]

There sure are a lot of people on here ready to slag a pilot BEFORE ANYONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED.

Go sit on your lazy boys, have another drink and wait for some facts before you slander someone for something you know fucking zero about. I'm willing to bet there are few besides the pilot who actually know what happened.

[viccoastdog]

I'm sorry as I realize I'm a little off topic, but is Harbour Air any better or for that matter was Baxter. Also do you think WCA will change?

During my brief stint with Harbour Air the training was impeccable, and sometimes a little longer than the minimum required. Plus the CP actually flew all of the planes regularly.

[2R]

Well it does not take long for the backstabbers to come out to play .Spineless gutless cowards who would stab you in the back quicker than you could ask what really happened .One little incident where no -one is hurt and you panic merchants would shut down aviation into the harbour as someone may hurt themselves if we do not stop them .Grow up .If you want to be respected start giving some respect .

Someone tell the backstabbers to stfu until the facts are known

[Cat Driver]

2R it is human nature to speculate about things such as this accident, read what I posted near the start of this thread......

Quote:
Catdriver I agree, but EVEN 18,000 pilots can feel the squeezes of "Office Space"-like boss's that say, "ahhhh yeah, looks kinda like an in between day today.. yeah. Why don't you go ahead now and just give her a look.....yeah"


I can not comment on why this pilot got caught in a situation that resulted in this ending.

But if I had my way every God Damned boss who was found guilty of intimidation of his/her crews would be put in jail where they belong.

I have seen this type of criminal behavior in this industry for over fifty years and nothing ever seems to change...it is just plain fu.kin disgusting.

It looks like the pilot has been hung out to dry by the company if he was fired so fast.

So now wouldn't it be nice to know how WCA handled their end of it, this appears to have been very close to a real serious accident so did WCA follow their company procedures such as informing TCCA in a timely manner and why has this not shown up in CADORS?

[Widow]

Has any "boss" ever been found "guilty of intimidation" by the regulators?

[FOwithBO]

Okay, lets compare two company's together. Harbour Air versus West Coast Air:

Both do the same job and roughly the same destinations, and are quite close in size.

One company, knows how it works. The other doesn't. Harbour Air starts from the top down, and it equates into a reputable, professional, safe, and relatively harmonious company. All of these traits help it run safely, and like I said, it comes from the top down. Training is thorough, qualifications are higher for pilots, and they have MD's, and CP's that get it, and have done it.

WCA.......well they're history speaks for itself. WCA has had alot of smart, highly experienced pilots who have done well there and carried on to do well in the aviation industry, and will always be my brothers and sisters of the sky. But the owners hire managers and CP's that are kind of mavericks to the industry. They LISTEN only to the owners, and thats all that counts in their eyes. The rest of the operation suffers.



I'd love to see the total incident/accident numbers from the past 10 years put up between WCA and Harbour Air. Now that would open some eyes.


Kudos to Harbour Air management who knows how it works.

[Widow]

If these kinds of things are true:

Other pilots have hit pilings with the wings of Twin Otters and flew 2 or 3 legs before mis-reporting it as a bird strike, over torqued engines on a DHC6, and banged and bumped DHC6 tails and wingtips all winter, but nothing done about that............

- Chief pilot tried to make me commit insurance fraud to cover up an accident.

... then chances are, any comparison between Harbour Air and WCA would be fallacious.

[Bulawrench]

Sounds like 2r is ######### himself. Thow not protest too loudly. Why don't you STFU.
Thanks to good operators like harbor air the industry won't be too tarnished by these events. Talk to any local pilot and this cowboy is known to all. Love to be a fly on the wall at the next audit. Anybody that is in the industry knows what everyone is doing. Talk to any former employees and they will tell you the mentality. I still say a 30 day suspension is needed and i think the rest of the industry should demand it.

[Ogee]

There's either a story in today's Vancouver Sun or tomorrows about this.

TSB investigation is finished.

TC is investigating to determine if any air regulations were violated.

[Meatservo]

I used to work for an outfit on the coast that paid by the mile, and if a guy flew to nanaimo, saw fog and turned around back to Vancouver, he may have been flying for 45 minutes but didn't get paid anything. Seriously. And this was the "reputable" airline. Some guys would decide not to do something if there was a chance they wouldn't get paid anyway, some guys tried extra hard to make sure they would get paid. Can't say I always made the morally correct choice.

[Ogee]

I used to work for an outfit on the coast that paid by the mile, and if a guy flew to nanaimo, saw fog and turned around back to Vancouver, he may have been flying for 45 minutes but didn't get paid anything. Seriously. And this was the "reputable" airline. Some guys would decide not to do something if there was a chance they wouldn't get paid anyway, some guys tried extra hard to make sure they would get paid. Can't say I always made the morally correct choice.

Ah yes, I remember working an inquest where that came up. It was just Norm al then, wasn't it.

[2R]

Another anonymous daggar thrown from an anonymous "talker" .
All mouth and trousers .talk and blah blah blah blah blah
Another anonymous assasin who never let facts get in the way of defamation ,slander or libel .
The worst kind of pure cowardice is saying something on an anonymous forum that you would not say in court .Or saying something behind a mans back you would not say to his face .Not given a man a chance to defend his honour is the mark of a coward .

[Widow]

2R, are you "defending" the pilot, or WCA?

[Ogee]

Another anonymous daggar thrown from an anonymous "talker" .
All mouth and trousers .talk and blah blah blah blah blah
Another anonymous assasin who never let facts get in the way of defamation ,slander or libel .
The worst kind of pure cowardice is saying something on an anonymous forum that you would not say in court .Or saying something behind a mans back you would not say to his face .Not given a man a chance to defend his honour is the mark of a coward .

All of that is very true.

[Cat Driver]

2R what exactly is it you are trying to say?

Who or what are you defending?