PAG loses grandfather clause for 704 ops

[KAFUFO]

apperintly their latest malfunction (gear that never quite went up) Mar 6/08 on the Metroliner has TC rethinking the Grandfather clause PAG has for 2010. With PAG operating aircraft that will not comply with balanced field restrictions TC realized that Manitobas only Airline shutting down would be a large inconviniance till they decided on a different type of A/C. As it turns out they will lose this grandfather clause due to saftey concerns stemming from 3 engin failures in one day out of YIV, 3 aircraft damaged due to overruns in the last year, multipule gear issues mostly not comming up but once not comming down. from the sounds of things Metroliners will now have to meet the same preformance standards as all other aircraft as the Tories cannot run an election on the grounds that they let Canadians fly on unsafe A/C.

Good to be a Dash pilot right now.

[2milefinal]

Believe it when I see TC pull it.

[CID]

Is this a case of aircraft design or an incompetent operator?

[Conquest Driver]

We might want to consider just how many flights PAG does each day. Add in gravel strips which can't be good for microswitches etc.

These have all been incidents, not accidents. I'm wondering how much better anyone else could have done?

[planett]

All 704 operators can use "Relief from accelerate stop distance requirements" (724.46) if they have the ops spec, and comply with the standard. This is not region specific, aircraft specific, or, company specific. It is time limited for skeds 5700 kg or less to Dec 20, 2010 for everyone.

[Captain Crunch]

Does this mean I can finally do a three flight day in the Dash again?

[veloz]

Time to get some 1900D's

[YWG gearcleaner]

Time to get some 1900D's

I think PAG would rather keep their cost effective airplane, and continue to make money.

[The Hammer]

Pretty tough to be profitable when you can't haul a "good Jag"

Oh well, I guess they'll have to implement their plans a couple of years earlier (2010 was coming quick anyway)

[spongebob]

If this happens (or after 2010), the Metro III's remain unchanged as they already comply with accelerate and stop distances. The Metro II's seats will just be reduced to 9 and they will operate as 703. Northbound legs will still be full (top off with cargo) and they can still make money with them. I'm sure eventually they would like to see more III's though.

[DHC3Rwannafly]

These have all been incidents, not accidents. I'm wondering how much better anyone else could have done?

So what determines an accident then? pax having to leave through the emergency exit is not an accident? the plane being written off is not an accident? Give me a break. How about fast air running 200's in to Poplar river, 2500' gravel....not too mention other various operators using other short gravel strips...are you saying an overrun needs to have a fatality to be an "accident"?

[Rubberbiscuit]

How does the Metro III fare performance wise on the shorter runways out of curiosity? Can it haul a full load out of St.Theresa Point or any other shorter runways when it gets warmer outside?

[Four1oh]

I once watched a metro land and depart in Cross Lake on a 'soggy' spring day. It is truly amazing these guys haven't had a hull loss operating these planes in northern manitoba.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Time to get some 1900D's

I think PAG would rather keep their cost effective airplane, and continue to make money.

If the 1900D is such a poor investment, why does Canada have one the highest, if not the highest number of 1900 operators in the world? It all depends on what you use it for and how you utilize it.

[The Hammer]

We might want to consider just how many flights PAG does each day. Add in gravel strips which can't be good for microswitches etc.

These have all been incidents, not accidents. I'm wondering how much better anyone else could have done?

The attitude that "the recent past is acceptable and that no one else could do any better" is easily part of the problem.

Bent airplanes are, in most circumstances, preventable. If pilot's/maintenance have attitudes that this is otherwise, then I would say here lies the problem.

How many Metro's have taken off from YGO, landed in YNE or YTH without a problem??? Why is that??? Because somewhere along the line, someone switched a slice of swiss cheese for cheddar

PS Half-assedness starts from the top down

[Hot Fuel]

For the inquiring minds that really didn`t know, hard to believe with all the experts that frequent here, maybe somebody's pulling my leg and I`ve been had.


reportable aviation accident” means an accident resulting directly from the operation of an aircraft, where

(a) a person sustains a serious injury or is killed as a result of

(i) being on board the aircraft,

(ii) coming into contact with any part of the aircraft or its contents, or

(iii) being directly exposed to the jet blast or rotor downwash of the aircraft;

(b) the aircraft sustains damage or failure that adversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft and that requires major repair or replacement of any affected component part; or

(c) the aircraft is missing or inaccessible.

“reportable aviation incident” means an incident resulting directly from the operation of an airplane having a maximum certificated takeoff weight greater than 5 700 kg, or from the operation of a rotorcraft having a maximum certificated takeoff weight greater than 2 250 kg, where

(a) an engine fails or is shut down as a precautionary measure;

(b) a transmission gearbox malfunction occurs;

(c) smoke or fire occurs;

(d) difficulties in controlling the aircraft are encountered owing to any aircraft system malfunction, weather phenomena, wake turbulence, uncontrolled vibrations or operations outside the flight envelope;

(e) the aircraft fails to remain within the intended landing or takeoff area, lands with all or part of the landing gear retracted or drags a wing tip, an engine pod or any other part of the aircraft;

(f) any crew member whose duties are directly related to the safe operation of the aircraft is unable to perform the crew member’s duties as a result of a physical incapacitation that poses a threat to the safety of any person, property or the environment;

(g) depressurization occurs that necessitates an emergency descent;

(h) a fuel shortage occurs that necessitates a diversion or requires approach and landing priority at the destination of the aircraft;

(i) the aircraft is refuelled with the incorrect type of fuel or contaminated fuel;

(j) a collision, a risk of collision or a loss of separation occurs;

(k) a crew member declares an emergency or indicates any degree of emergency that requires priority handling by an air traffic control unit or the standing by of emergency response services;

(l) a slung load is released unintentionally or as a precautionary or emergency measure from the aircraft; or

(m) any dangerous goods are released in or from the aircraft.

[snaproll20]

sure are some strange and uninformed opinions on this thread

[grimey]

These have all been incidents, not accidents.

Well, except these:

CADORS Number: 2007C0755 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2007/03/25
Occurrence Time: 1840 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 0

Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYTH Aerodrome Name: Thompson
Occurrence Location: Thompson (CYTH) Province: Manitoba
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 78353-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 5 TSB Occurrence No.: A07C0055
Event Information
Collision with object
Declared emergency/priority
Evacuation (aircraft)
Hydraulic problem
Landing gear
Runway excursion
Aircraft Information
Flight #: PAG 208
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: SWEARINGEN Model: SA226TC
Year Built: 1980 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: GARRETT Engine Model: TPE331-10UA
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Takeoff Damage: Substantial
Owner: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD Operator: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. (1861)
Operator Type: Commercial

Detail Information
User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2007/03/26
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: Maintenance & Manufacturing
Narrative: PAG 208, a Metro II with 2 crew and 5 passengers, was en route from Gods Lake Narrows to Thompson and at 1840z when 30 miles southeast of YTH, the crew declared an emergency due to an unsafe gear indication on the right mains. At 1857z the crew did a fly-by over the airport and company maintenance personnel advised that the brace at the back of the right main gear was broken. ERS responded and the crew circled to burn off fuel. They also advised that they had had lost all hydraulics. The aircraft subsequently landed flapless on Runway 23 at 2008z and slid off the end off the runway. All 7 SOB were able to walk away from the a/c. Initial information from the TSB is that the aircraft may have sustained damage to the right gear on departure from Gods Lake Narrows. The drag links on the right main gear were broken, which also resulted in a hydraulic leak. Prior to landing, the crew feathered the right engine. On landing, the right gear folded backward out of the wheel well and collapsed, causing structural damage to the right wing. One passenger may have suffered minor injuries in the accident. The aircraft has been removed from the field and is now on jacks in a hangar. The company will dispach another aircraft to Gods lake Narrows to inspect the runway. TSB report will follow.

User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2007/03/28
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE TSB reported that during takeoff from Runway 32 at Gods Lake Narrows, Manitoba, the crew of a Perimeter Aviation Flight PAG 208, a Swearingen SA226-TC Metro II aircraft, had difficulty raising the nose of the aircraft. The aircraft overran the runway and struck a snow bank with the right main landing gear as the aircraft was becoming airborne. The drag braces on the right main landing gear were broken and hydraulic lines were ruptured, causing a complete loss of hydraulic pressure. The aircraft diverted to Thompson, Manitoba where the crew conducted a flapless landing with the left main gear and nose gear in the down and locked position. The right main gear collapsed as the weight came on it and the aircraft slid to a stop off the right side, close to the end of Runway 23. Emergency response vehicles attended the scene and the passengers were deplaned through the left overwing emergency exit. TSB is continuing its assessment of this occurrence.

CADORS Number: 2005C0905 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2005/05/10
Occurrence Time: 1530 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 0

Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYTH Aerodrome Name: Thompson
Occurrence Location: Thompson Province: Manitoba
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: TSB Winnipeg AOR Number:
TSB Class Of Investigation: 5 TSB Occurrence No.: A05C0079
Event Information
Collision with terrain
Hard landing
Weather - clear air turbulence (CAT)/wind shear/turbulence
Aircraft Information
Flight #: PAG 914
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: SWEARINGEN Model: SA226TC
Year Built: 1980 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: GARRETT Engine Model: TPE331-10UA
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Landing Damage: Substantial
Owner: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. Operator: PERIMETER AIRLINES (INLAND) LTD. (3254)
Operator Type: Commercial

Detail Information
User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2005/05/11
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: Perimeter 914, a Fairchild SA-226TC Metro with 17 people on board, registration C-FKEX was on approach at Thompson, MB on a flight from York Landing. The first officer flew the aircraft during the approach, and encountered turbulence and fluctuating airspeed. The captain took control at 200 feet agl. The aircraft was high and left of centreline. The captain added power, continued the approach and landed hard on Runway 23 near the intersection with Runway 32. After the aircraft arrived at the apron, a fuel leak was noted. The aircraft was inspected and damage was found in the wheel wells, wing leading edge, engine mounts and a wing-fuselage attachment point. No injuries were reported. Reported winds at 1400Z were 010 @ 15-20 kts; 1500Z winds were 350 @ 9 kts. The class of TSB investigation is being assesed.

User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2005/05/12
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE TSB reported that this accident will be classified as a Class 5 investigation.

CADORS Number: 2006C2910 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2006/11/08
Occurrence Time: 1437 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 0

Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYNE Aerodrome Name: Norway House
Occurrence Location: Norway House (CYNE) Province: Manitoba
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: CACO AOR Number: 74540-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 3 TSB Occurrence No.: A06C0181
Event Information
Engine malfunction - other
Loss of control - on ground
Runway excursion
Aircraft Information
Flight #: PAG 105
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: SWEARINGEN Model: SA226TC
Year Built: 1978 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: GARRETT Engine Model: TPE331-10UA
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Landing Damage: Substantial
Owner: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD Operator: PERIMETER AIRLINES (INLAND) LTD. (3254)
Operator Type: Commercial

Detail Information
User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2006/11/08
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: PAG 105, a Metro II with 2 crew and 7 passengers on board, landed at Norway House, exited the runway and came to rest on rocky terrain. Initial reports suggest an engine malfunction may have been involved in the loss of control on the runway. There were no injuries, however the aircraft is reported to be substantially damaged. TSB report to follow.

User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2006/11/15
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE TSB reported that the Perimeter Aviation Swearingen SA-226-TC, C-FTNV, was on a scheduled flight from Winnipeg to Norway House with a crew of two and seven passengers on board. On touchdown at Norway House, when propeller reverse was selected, the aircraft turned toward the left side of the runway. Before the turn could be corrected, the left main tire passed beyond the runway lights and contacted loose snow. The aircraft traversed a ditch then climbed a soil-covered rocky embankment. All three landing gears collapsed and the aircraft came to rest upright and on its belly. The crew and passengers exited the aircraft via the over-wing exits and the main door stairway. There were no reported injuries.

User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2006/11/17
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE TSB has made this a Class 3 investigation and System Safety has appointed a Minister's Observer.

[The Hammer]

Careful Grimey if you start posting facts, this thread will get pulled

[Turkey]

The fact is, none of the above examples is related to the 2010 rule change. After 2010, the Metro II shouldn't be allowed to operate 704. Rightly so. It belongs in cargo, or 703, hauling 9 pax at a time. Even then, the Metro II (SA227TC) is a tired, old airframe.

[2milefinal]

If this happens (or after 2010), the Metro III's remain unchanged as they already comply with accelerate and stop distances. The Metro II's seats will just be reduced to 9 and they will operate as 703. Northbound legs will still be full (top off with cargo) and they can still make money with them. I'm sure eventually they would like to see more III's though.

Are you saying that a III is good to go off a 3000 -3500 ft unprepared rwy, with 19 on board. Not by my calculations.

[harveymushman]

Really the problem in manitoba isnt that Perimeter operates metro's into these short strips. The problem is that the Manitoba Government doesnt feel the need to improve these strips.

[spongebob]

If this happens (or after 2010), the Metro III's remain unchanged as they already comply with accelerate and stop distances. The Metro II's seats will just be reduced to 9 and they will operate as 703. Northbound legs will still be full (top off with cargo) and they can still make money with them. I'm sure eventually they would like to see more III's though.

Are you saying that a III is good to go off a 3000 -3500 ft unprepared rwy, with 19 on board. Not by my calculations.

I never said it does. Those trips would be done as 703 with the II (the II can't even take off 3000-3500 ft unprepared strip with 19 passengers!). I'm just saying that Perimeter has known this is coming (2010) and I'm sure they are ready for it with existing planes or planes they will be acquiring in the near future. The fact of the matter is, their operation will change slightly, but it'll be more of the same, but instead of having 12 passengers in the II out of St. Theresa, they will carry 9. Big Deal!

[The Hammer]

My keystone shares have gone up even more than baby seal clubbing baton shares have!!!

[2milefinal]

spongebob,
... carry on then.