global report on pilot flight duty times

[Four1oh]

yeah, but don't forget about that 'let' where it's the crew's responsibility to ground themselves if they're fatigued.

[Rockie]

That's the key right there and the only protection we have. If you are too tired you are unfit for duty and must say so, but expect your company to counter with the line that it is your responsibility to be rested for duty. If it becomes a fight then I think it warrants a trip to the medical examiners to prove you are unfit. It is up to the individual because Transport Canada is utterly useless and will never, never change the rule despite the glaringly obvious safety implications. They will only say that the duty times are adequate and that aircrew are only trying to improve their working conditions which is a matter between them and their employer. It disgusts me to even think about it much less say it.

[. .]

yeah, but don't forget about that 'let' where it's the crew's responsibility to ground themselves if they're fatigued.

From the very top down the companies will tell you that "what you're expected to do falls within what's legal".

The only difference is the severity of the discipline for not flying tired.

[2milefinal]

I have heard that there are some European airline crews that have refused to dead-head with North American company's, due to Crew duty rest concerns. Can anyone confirm this.

[Widow]

Another reason why a Professional Pilot's Association might be of benefit?

[Hotel Tango]

I don't really have a problem with 14hr duty days...

When its a wait and return thats what the hotel room is for.... sleep.

I don't think you have a good grasp on the reality of a 14 hour duty day for MANY of the rest of us in the industry.

There are no hotel rooms, in the north there isn't even pilot snooze rooms. 14 hours is 14 hours of work. If there is a break you're waiting on a chair somewhere. Of course that's not much of an issue most of the time because you're actually flying for the entire duty day. It wasn't unusual to log 10 hours in that 14-15. Now throw in the medevac side of things and you could be up all day on call, go to bed and shortly afterwards get a phone call that starts your duty day and now you're up all night flying in bad weather at lower than normal altitudes with no autopilot doing an approach into every airport. Forget even getting a decent meal too. There's no take out in the middle of nowhere, when you get to the pt where you drop off the patient all the stores/restaurants are closed and sometimes you didn't make a lunch because you only landed 10 hours before you were dispatched so you chose sleep over food preparation. Now over 24 hours since you last slept you finally get your minimum rest just to do it again. When it's busy you even need to decide if you should eat or get your full 8 hours of sleep. These duty day limits are an accident waiting to happen, too many of my friends are still flying under these conditions and it's just not right.

[The Hammer]

HT

But if they change the rules then you boss would have to drive a 3 series BMW instead of a 5 series. Clearly not acceptable.

[CD]

Just as a point of information... There are regulatory change proposals from 1999 and 2000 awaiting the attention of the Department of Justice so that they can be published in Gazette I for public comment. These proposals were consulted through the CARAC way back when but the DoJ still hasn't found the time to review them. I'm not sure if these changes will make a difference or not, but here are the proposals as they were consulted at the time:

1999-191 - 700 - Division II
1999-192 - 720 - Division II
1999-193 - 702 - Division X (New)
1999-194 - 722 - Division X (New)
1999-195 - 703 - Division X (New)
1999-196 - 723 - Division X (New) - Aeroplanes
1999-197 - 723 - Division X (New) - Helicopters
1999-198 - 704 - Division X (New)
1999-199 - 724 - Division X (New) - Aeroplanes
1999-200 - 724 - Division X (New) - Helicopters
1999-201 - 705 - Division X (New)
1999-202 - 725 - Division X (New)
2000-299 - 101.01 Définitions - « Time free from duty »
2000-300 - 705.150(xx) (New) Requirements for Time Free from Duty
2000-301 - 725.150 (New) Requirements for Time Free from Duty
2000-302 - 725.147(xx) (New) Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods
2000-303 - 724A.130(xx) (New) - Aeroplanes Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods
2000-304 - 724H.130(xx) (New) - Helicopters Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods
2000-305 - 724A.133(xx) (New) - Aeroplanes Requirements for Time Free from Duty
2000-306 - 723A.112(xx) (New) - Aeroplanes Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods
2000-307 - 723H.112(xx) (New) - Helicopters Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods
2000-308 - 722.96(xx) (New) Requirements for Time Free from Duty
2000-309 - 723A.115(xx) (New) - Aeroplanes Requirements for Time Free from Duty
2000-310 - 723H.115(xx) (New) - Helicopters Requirements for Time Free from Duty

More recently, there was discussion here regarding duty times for AME and Flight Attendants:

AvCanada - Maintenance Duty Times?
AvCanada - Aircraft Maintenance Survey - Fatigue
AvCanada - Flight attendant Limitations?

I think I've got a few more links kicking around here somewhere as well... Will add them when I find them to try and get them all in one place.

[CD]

Here is some history on the various proposals related to AME fatigue (although I think that the actual proposals from 2004 were withdrawn following consultation at CARAC)...

Background
Assessment of Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (AMEs) Hours of Work: Phase 1 (TP 13875E)
Fatigue in the Aircraft Maintenance Industry: Research Findings and Next Steps ~ Maintenance and Manufacturing Technical Committee (Part V) September 25 & 26, 2002
Position Paper on Fatigue Risk Management within the Aviation Maintenance Industry
Technical Committee Meeting - March 9-10, 2004: Fatigue Risk Management System
Development and implementation of fatigue risk management systems for aviation maintenance and aircraft operators

Some additional studies from the TDC:

TP 13193E, Measurement and monitoring of the effects of work schedule and jet lag on the information processing capacity of individual pilots
TP 13804E, Measurement and monitoring of the effects of work schedule and jet lag on the information processing capacity of individual pilots: Phase 2
TP 14169E, Fatigue risk assessment of aircraft maintenance tasks
TP 14579E, Development of a fatigue risk management system for the Canadian aviation industry

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Do TCCA employees work 14 hour duty days?

Do ATAC mandarins work 14 hour duty days?

[SeptRepair]

HT

But if they change the rules then you boss would have to drive a 3 series BMW instead of a 5 series. Clearly not acceptable.

Hahaha, so true.

[bezerker]

I would like to hear someones opinion with respect to the Canada Labour Code regarding "bag run" type schedules.

I may be wrong, but it would appear to me that when you left the company, you could be owed a substantial amount of overtime if you worked 14 hr flight duty days, 5 days a week. This obviously wouldn't apply to a company with a collective agreement.

My thought process:

First, I believe flight duty time is work, as one of the definitions given by HRDC regarding the Labour Code is "an employee is at work when he or she is at the disposal of the employer and under the employer's direction at the place of work."

Second, every week you would be working 70 hours (14 hours a day, 5 days a week), 40 is the maximum before overtime must be paid (this applies whether you are paid by mileage, salary, etc.). (also according to the code, 48 is the maximum number of hours allowed in a week for scheduled employees, but we can leave that for another day).

So, if you worked 50 weeks a year (two weeks vacation). you would have accrued 1500 hours of overtime (30 x 50) which must be paid out at 1.5 times your hourly rate.

Most flying jobs don't pay hourly, but the C.L.C. has covered that, you just take your pay for the month and divide it by 160.

So, when you leave your navajo/metro job which paid $3,000 per month, could you present your employer with a bill for ($3,000 / 160 = $18.75 per hour) x 1500 hours x 1.5 = $42,187.50 for each year worked. (It works out to about $22,500 if you worked 4 days/ 56 hrs per week).

It would seem that paying a driver $78,000 a year on a bag run would cause an owner some concern.

Of course the easy way out for them is a new wage policy, such as setting the pay at the minimum wage, $8, per flight duty hour (which would result in about $36,000 per year using the above math).

Anyway, If the above is correct, the way to avoid overtime payment is to have the employees fly only 11 days per month. Sweet schedule!

Whether I am right or wrong about the interpretation of the labour code, I doubt that anyone will try to follow up on possible violations while still under employment with a company (although if you have just been fired or are about to leave for a better job it might be worth a try!).

Why? Everyone knows that there are scheduled flights out there that will require 13 or 14 hour duty days, and there always will be. In order to make the monthly schedule pleasant, the only solution is to decrease the number of days worked per month. Companies will have to increase the flight crews and logically, pay will go down (if possible). Pilots would do the obvious, and instead of flying an enjoyable schedule at a reduced pay rate would rather accept the extra hours of work without complaining, which is what is happening as we speak.

Slightly off topic, but I would be very interested in a thread regarding the Canada Labour Code and how it applies to aviation. There are many issues such as stat holidays, training pay, vacations, and overtime which could all be interesting to discuss, as I know that many companies are in violation of some or all of those topics.

[Hotel Tango]

HT

But if they change the rules then you boss would have to drive a 3 series BMW instead of a 5 series. Clearly not acceptable.

THE HORROR!

On a similar but unrelated note, is the 24hr on call schedule even legal?
You know, sit around all day and 14 hours start when you get the call, regardless of how long you've been up. Then when you have the short trips, 7 hour duty day, ended at 1200 for example... Now dispatch says that you're "good 'til 1900 and fresh at 2100". DEFINATELY not a fair way of doing it, but is it illegal? (I think it is, either you're ON or OFF duty)

[KAFUFO]

now lets be clear your bitting the hand that feeds you(more specifically me).

your 24/7 is supplemented by an equal time off.

work for a week get a week off. make well above standard pay.

don't you even think about starting to Fu&k with my week off

[SeptRepair]

Yes the angle of time off should be considered. From the engineers side of things, i was working 4 on 4 off with 10 hr days. Sweet schedule. Didnt amount to much hours per month but in the summer its great ( water bombing season). But because management refuses to hire enough people it was expected you would be available on your 4 off in case they needed you.... catch? No stand by pay. The first year i tolerated and it and sure as shit i had alot of OT, yet a pissed off ole lady and kids who never knew i existed. The following year I told them to pound salt and if i was expected to be by a phone on my days off they would then have to pay me accordingly. I used the example if i wanna go out on the lake and have a few beers then i couldn't report to work. If they wanted me to be available then pay me for sobriety! They refused and i refused to answer my phone on days off. Simple solution.

[Amateur Turbines]

Kafufucker, What in the @#$! are you talking about? How can you possibly think that working this sort of schedule is safe? I wrote TC back in 2001 about this absolutely ridiculous work sched that pilots are allowed to work. They sent me a letter which I know have framed that says to me essentially "prove it". I was floored to receive such a response to such a serious issue. Anyways I think I'm going to start drinking early today this is making me mad!

[Hotel Tango]

now lets be clear your bitting the hand that feeds you(more specifically me).

your 24/7 is supplemented by an equal time off.

work for a week get a week off. make well above standard pay.

don't you even think about starting to Fu&k with my week off

Above standard pay?! We weren't working for the same company.

Unfortunately they do f**k with the days off as well as giving you on call days during those days off. I'm pretty sure other companies did that too. So where's the justice?

[W5]

Thanks for the links, CD.
Saves me a lot of searching!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Rules and regulations do not over ride the fact that the human body and brain are not designed to be run like a machine.

Regardless of what the rules say if you have been on duty for these excessively long hours and you are very tired and your partner in the other seat is also tired all it takes is something different coming into play and neither of you may be alert enough to keep up with what is going on.......and goodbye you are dead.

Fortunately Boeing and Airbus have those nifty little pilot helpers called Autoland that can make life easier for pilots who are behind the action due to fatigue.

But how about all the great unwashed out there who don't have those magic things to help them out???

Rocky wrote:

It is up to the individual because Transport Canada is utterly useless and will never, never change the rule despite the glaringly obvious safety implications. They will only say that the duty times are adequate and that aircrew are only trying to improve their working conditions which is a matter between them and their employer. It disgusts me to even think about it much less say it.

There is no incentive for anyone in TC to do anything, much less go to the bother of changing these rules.....as long as they show up at their offices occassionally they are guaranteed two things.....Good pay.... and great benefits including a pension plan.....

That may explain why they are so inefficient.

[Liquid Charlie]

Second, every week you would be working 70 hours (14 hours a day, 5 days a week), 40 is the maximum before overtime must be paid (this applies whether you are paid by mileage, salary, etc.). (also according to the code, 48 is the maximum number of hours allowed in a week for scheduled employees, but we can leave that for another day).

Good thoughts if aviation was not covered under the Canadian Labor laws instead of provincial. Under the Canadian code overtime is based on your yearly work hours that can be averaged over the full year -- something like 2200 hours. It is very easy for a company to work your ass off and yet keep you under the over time clause --

The labor laws in the NWT are likely the best for overtime (maybe other provinces are the same) but you must be paid overtime on a daily basis where Ontario an employer can average over a week. -- But we are SOL

[CP]

A company I once worked for was forced to pay all their pilots retro-actively for over time worked when an employee made a call to the labour board about this issue. The company used the averaging method to mitigate the damage but we still all got retro cheques!

[TheEvilTwin]

Its about time this F'n stupid rule gets squashed... how anyone thinks anyone is legitamately alert after even 12 hours is on crack... It will take 5 planes to crash in a week and kill a thousand people for TC even looks at changing this rule... A 14 hour day is OK if its only 1 day, its when companies start abusing the fact that they think they can legally work you for 14 hours a day for multiple days in a row... The normal trick is to schedule a guy for 4 in a row, work him for 2 14 hour days, limit him to 11 hours and 59 minutes on the 3rd day, and then grind the poor pilot into the ground for another 14 on the 4th day... I see it done all the time... and its about time this BS comes to an end. Oh and don't even think about calling sick on one of those days or you'll get your pay docked.

As for getting paid above avg salary do the math... if you are on the hook for 17 days a month at 14 hours a day you work 2856 hours a year.. Downtown office guy works 40 a week for 52 weeks = 2080 hours... I'm willing to bet downtown office boy gets paid more, works 9-5, gets weekends off, and doesn't have a pager strapped to his belt... yeah he's stuck in the office, but 800 hours more is a little absurd, and is it even legal??

[teacher]

If I've learned anything in my many years of flying it's that change can only be affected by us. The plane ain't going anywhere unless we're flying it. Easier said than done HOWEVER it's the truth. If Joe Blow medivac operator wants to run like that and EVERYONE said, no thanks, call me when I'm rested change would happen and FAST.

Someone mentioned that money is all that matters and that's why regulations don't change well I say ABSOLUTLEY!!! When the planes stop flying and the money stops flowing you bet your ass companies will be accomodating. Problem is if even 1 person is willing to snake in and do the job nothing gets accomplished.

I've been there and lost a job for taking a stand and don't regret it at all, too bad there was a line of people behind me that jumped in to do the shit I was not willing too.

[pushyboss]

Under Federal Labor Law transportation related business's can apply for an exemption to the 40 hourweek/2200 hour year. Even under fedral regulations overtime must be paid out should an individual work more tham 8 hours per day or 40 hours per week. There is an exemption called "continuous service". Any transportation company can apply for this continuous service exemption. This allows a company to "average" the work hours over a 12 month period. So working 80 hours one week and 0 hours the next week would not trigger overtime. A company must apply for this exemption however and prove that they have a legitimate need.

['79K20driver]

This averaging hours thing, I think, is designed for seasonal type operators like many of the northern operations that shut down or slow to a crawl in the winter. It seems like a reasonable thing for them to make use of, however, I think there are many companies who misrepresent the extent of their seasonal fluctuations when applying for this policy. Such operations, on the west coast for instance, operate year round and therefore have far less in the way of seasonal fluctuations than a northern operator. Harbour Air, to their credit, has addressed this and has basically a monthly averaging system which is much better than the annual averaging system as it properly represents the seasonal fluctuations that they experience. On the other hand, the annual averaging system used at West Coast Air has been a thorn in the side of their employees for years (other than maintenance, they get OT).

Annual averaging policies should be banned for companies that operate year round. Since TC isn't going to do anything about 14 hour duty days, maybe Labour Canada can help out by improving their OT policy and doing a little research into some of the companies out there that may be abusing their OT payout privileges. If it starts to cost companies a little more in pay then maybe they'll reduce the 14 hour days.