Student

[AdamB]

Good day,

I am currently finishing my second year of studies at John Abbott College in the Aircraft Maintenance program (-3 year- CEGEP program). It would be nice to do something related to my program in the summer. What options would i have in the maintenance field? I live in the Montreal region, and would ideally be looking for a gig where I'd get some hands on experience in the 3 months of summer vacation (Late June-Late August) - and then hopefully continue working there part time while finishing up on school. I'm looking for the kind of thing that would help me towards getting my AME license as quickly and efficiently as possible.

I really don't even know where to start with this. I am well on my way to getting my CPL (have close to 200hrs), but i have never explored anything on this side of the aviation world, and this is why any help would be greatly appreciated. My idea is to get my AME license after finishing this program, after, and during which i would like to get some sort of university degree (probably night school).

Thank you in advance for any help,

Adam B

[SeptRepair]

Well sounds like your just trying to add an AME license as a resume topper. Doesn't sound like you really want to be an engineer. Probably best if you stayed in a flight school somewhere pulled panels and changed oil on some small stuff.

[AdamB]

Or maybe I'm actually interested in this field and would like to gain some extra knowledge before starting in what will hopefully be aeronautical engineering. Or hell, maybe i'll be an AME for the rest of my life. Or maybe, godwilling, ill actually have the money one day to pay for the rest of my flight school. Or, maybe i just wasn't clear - if you want to lecture me without knowing who i am or what i want to do in life then please refrain from doing so, at least on this thread. Any HELP would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Adam B

[SeptRepair]

Not lecturing you, just making an observation and passing on advice. You want to be an engineer yet have no clue what you want to work on. There is General aviation, Airlines, Flight training organizations, Helicopters ( both small and transport size). and corporate. You live in a metropolitan area and have all of those at your finger tips. Someone who claims to have close to 200 hours flying should have a little inkling as to what exactly they would like to do and what area of aircraft maintenance they would like to pursue. Getting a job and "getting my AME license as quickly and efficiently as possible. " sends up warnings signs that you maybe one of the few i have come across out there trying to get an AME license like its some kind of ticket to securing a better job flying. You want HELP? Try getting a job in a flight school pulling panels and changing oil. That will get you on your way to learning the basics of an aircraft.

[AdamB]

Not lecturing you, just making an observation and passing on advice.

Oh really? I must be blind then.

You want to be an engineer yet have no clue what you want to work on.

We're getting somewhere. This is precisely why i need advice.

You live in a metropolitan area and have all of those at your finger tips. Someone who claims to have close to 200 hours flying should have a little inkling as to what exactly they would like to do and what area of aircraft maintenance they would like to pursue.

Someone who HAS close to 200 flying hours. I have no reason to lie. And for your information, I have one year of school left before getting my CEGEP degree. Then I have another few years in university. I am 18 years old. Believe me, I know i have plenty of time to think about what I want to do in the future, and if you ask me, now is probably a good time for me to start figuring some things (possible future career) out. And seeing as to how I'm more than half done my program which (oh, surprise) happens to be aircraft maintenance, I have recently began wondering if it wouldn't be wise to finish that all the way to my AME license before pursuing full time university studies.

Getting a job and "getting my AME license as quickly and efficiently as possible. " sends up warnings signs that you maybe one of the few i have come across out there trying to get an AME license like its some kind of ticket to securing a better job flying.

When i say "job" i mean "a place where i can gain useful experience in the field of aircraft maintenance "

When i say "quickly and efficiently" i mean "a place where i will do work that will be credited towards my AME license, and where i wont waste my time". I do not want to get stuck in stores or some other place where i won't learn anything or get anything signed off.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear before. Hope this sounds better to you.

And maybe you're right, maybe I am one of those few who thinks the AME license is just a ticket that will one day secure me a better flying job. I'm sure, judging by some of your other posts, that you've been in the industry for a while and you've seen it before.
However, it is not my case. Granted, it is my dream to one day retire as a captain on some large jet. But, in the meantime, I want to learn as much as I can. Aviation and Mechanics are two things that fascinate me, so it only makes sense to me to learn about both. I do not want to blitz my way through my licenses, whether flying or AME. I want to learn it all as best i can, but i want to do so without wasting time [efficiently]. To be honest I can picture myself in the future as both a pilot and an AME, if there is the need for such a thing. Both sides of the industry interest me, ground and air ops. I am not in aviation because i think i will get a glamorous, hugely profitable career. I am in it because it has always been a passion of mine. Hell, if i could afford a blimp license id probably get it for fun.
And who knows, if the university thing works out, i might even have a degree in aeronautical engineering.

You want HELP?

Yes, please. I realize that there are lots of very well informed people that browse this website, and thought I'd give posting on it a shot.

Try getting a job in a flight school pulling panels and changing oil. That will get you on your way to learning the basics of an aircraft.

If that's what it takes to start off, then I'd be willing to do it. That being said, I've had my fair share of changing oil and pulling panels. Mind you that's on cars. As an even younger kid than i am now, I've worked in my dad's garage for a few summers. I swept floors,, replaced hundreds of tires, and changed oil more times than i could count. Didn't learn a damn thing about fixing cars until someone showed me how to do it. And that's what I'm asking for, a place that will give me hands on experience in fixing airplanes, where I'll learn something, and progress quickly and efficiently to the level of knowledge necessary to get an AME license.

And I believe I do have a fair amount of knowledge about the basics of an aircraft. I know i am new to all of this, and i have a hell of a lot to learn - i just hate to have to defend myself like this.

So, once again, does anyone know of any opportunities for aspiring mechanics such as myself in the Montreal region? And any constructive advice or help would be appreciated.

Adam B

[tiggermoth]

Hello AdamB. Welcome to the aviation industry. You are not going to like me to tell you that I agree with SeptRepair's comments, but if you bear with me I will tell you some things I learned and have observed. I have been in the aircraft maintenance business for almost 10 years, so i have been around a bit, yet I have a lot to learn myself.

To start, I initially got the same impression that you are mostly out to get your AME licence as a "resume polisher". Now this may or may not be true, I don't care. Personally I think you are very smart to go all the way with the AME licence now that you have started. I know too many people who finished half their apprenticeship and than walked away.

Second, what is a CEGEP degree? Never heard of it before. I am more familiar with the AME basic training diploma most schools give you once you have completed the AME basic training program at a transport canada approved school. These are pretty much all the same, a piece of paper saying that you are now ready to go out into the field and REALLY start to learn about aircraft maintenance. Believe this next statement, and if you remember nothing else of what anyone says, remember this: just because you have graduated AME school with a diploma/degree does NOT make you an expert AME who knows everything. I have had a number of fresh out of school apprentices who "knew everything" because they had just graduated. WRONG!!! Many broken parts and screw-ups later most all of them were sent packing.

Third,

Granted, it is my dream to one day retire as a captain on some large jet.

If so it would be best for you to decide now whether you want this or to become an engineer. It would be very hard to do both. Just not enough time in ones life. However,

But, in the meantime, I want to learn as much as I can.

That is a good attitude to start with.

Fourth,

If that's what it takes to start off, then I'd be willing to do it. That being said, I've had my fair share of changing oil and pulling panels. Mind you that's on cars. As an even younger kid than i am now, I've worked in my dad's garage for a few summers. I swept floors,, replaced hundreds of tires, and changed oil more times than i could count. Didn't learn a damn thing about fixing cars until someone showed me how to do it. And that's what I'm asking for, a place that will give me hands on experience in fixing airplanes, where I'll learn something, and progress quickly and efficiently to the level of knowledge necessary to get an AME license.

I hate to tell you this, but all the experience in the world on cars/trucks/trains etc, doesn't mean a whole bunch when you first walk in the door of a maintenance shop on your first day of work. As a green apprentice, no matter what your background, you will almost certainley be sweeping floors, pulling panels, cleaning parts, changing oil (hell, I even was the poor shmuck who had to clean the washrooms) for the first while before being allowed to do more complicated stuff, such as changing tires, servicing oleos etc. Then, after a while of slowly stepping up you will be allowed to help with real fun stuff like engine changes, control rigging etc. Here is why it works this way, Aircraft maintenance is quite critical and must be performed with a certain amount of skill and work ethic. Experienced engineers who are given a new apprentice will start them out slowly and observe how they do simple menial tasks. Within the first week I can usually tell if someone is going to work out or not. As they "prove" themselves, then they are given more responsibility.

Last, sit down and decide what sort of maintenance experience you would like, be it small aircraft (Cessna 172, Piper Cherokee etc), charter types (King Air, PC-12 etc), jets (Citation, Hawker, etc) helicopters, or whatever. Then find yourself a shop that does what you decide you would like to do and go talk to them. You might get hired, you might get turned down, but if you are serious, don't give up.

Now, I hope I haven't gone on too long or bored you, but that is just a few quick pointers I could think of. As long as you have a good attitude and good work ethic you should be alright.

Best of luck, tiggermoth.

[SeptRepair]

Well kid, wasn't meaning to make you defend yourself, was mostly digging to see what it is you really want to be. Believe it or not by giving more back ground you have more credibility of actually wanting to be a mechanic then some charm school kid who wants to be taught to be a mechanic. Aptitude isnt something that that is learned it is something you are born with, seems you may have the genes. But dont kid yourself thinking because you changed oil and a few tires that is going to buy you a pass to re and re'ing engines and bypassing the mundane shit. Hell my first years i had my hand up the shitter pipes on F28's and F-27's clearing blockages caused by some idiot who thought it was "ok" to put diapers and tampons in the toilet. Nope didnt get to have that signed off in my logbook. ( actually they didnt have log books back then, hell paper was barely invented). But i grinned and bared it and eventually got enough time in to convince transport i was ready to challenge the exams. No there were no questions on the exam on blue water and diaper absorption. There are highs and lows and as much as you want to get that log book signed off be willing to spend some time in the go nowhere positions. Be it stores, paint stripping, or washing aircraft it is all part of an apprenticeship.

PS Stick to wrenching and keep flying as a hobby.

[markymarkl]

Lots of entry level jobs out there. Go north while your young and move south when your bone start to hurt LOL.

[AdamB]

Firstly, thanks for the replies. All points taken.

Second, what is a CEGEP degree?

It's a Quebec thing. Our provincial government believes itself to be special, and so it decided to introduce CEGEP's into our education system. Instead of having High School until the 12th grade, like nearly anywhere else in the world, we finish it at the 11th and then move on to either pre-university (2 year) or technical (3 year) programs, offered by CEGEP's. I guess it could be equivalent to an American college degree, but don't take my word for it. Basically i have a whole bunch of general courses (humanities, first and second language, gym, etc) in addition to the a/c maintenance courses.

Just because you have graduated AME school with a diploma/degree does NOT make you an expert AME who knows everything.

I realize this, and it would be foolish to think otherwise.

I hate to tell you this, but all the experience in the world on cars/trucks/trains etc, doesn't mean a whole bunch when you first walk in the door of a maintenance shop on your first day of work. As a green apprentice, no matter what your background, you will almost certainly be sweeping floors, pulling panels, cleaning parts, changing oil

I didn't mean to give the impression i have lots of experience in fixing anything, really. I only have very (emphasize the "very") limited experience as any form of a mechanic. At most i could diagnose what's wrong with my car half the time, and be able to fix it once out of every ten times - that sort of deal. I have just enough experience that i know (or hope i know) i wont be entirely hopeless, and I'm open to learn.
And I realize that I'll be doing lots of work unrelated to fixing aircraft to begin with, and that's not really a problem. I just want to find a place that won't make me do only those things for twenty years before attempting to teach me something.

If so it would be best for you to decide now whether you want this or to become an engineer. It would be very hard to do both. Just not enough time in ones life.

Has it never been done? For sure some companies would love to have a pilot who can spend his time on the ground helping maintain the fleet.
At the very least I imagine it would be useful if i were to start a small aviation business one day (fly during the day, fix overnight sort of deal). Wouldn't it also be useful for bush pilots? Being able to fix the airplane on the spot, assuming you had spare parts. Again, I'm not looking to top off my resume. I am genuinely interested in pursuing that sort of career, and now I'm just throwing some ideas out there.

PS Stick to wrenching and keep flying as a hobby.

Care to elaborate ? Why do you think so?

Again, thank you for the responses.

Adam B

[qa guy]

I'd go the opposite way . Fly for a living, and tinker around with stuff for fun. You'll be able to buy more toys as a pilot.

[avyonx]

Keep doing what you're doing Adam B. I did the same thing. I finished my CPL while I was in College studying to be an AME. I didn't fly much while I was working in the field becuase financially its wasn't possible for me but just enough to keep current. I then got my AME ticket and went West. Few years later I now work at a charter company doing Maintenance on King Airs and they also paid the training for me to sit Right seat if they need a spare Co-Jo. I fly around 8 - 10 hours a month which is perfect for me. It also gives me time to finish my own plane I'm building. qa guy is right about the pilot thing but thats after 25 years as a captain. For now I suggest you concentrate on your AME and take your time. You'll know what I mean when you rig the controls and do the test flight!!

[qa guy]

Good points avyonx!

[AdamB]

Thanks for the reply, sounds like you have it really good there. Would you have suggestions on anywhere to start, while im still in school?

[avyonx]

Well unfortunetly I am not familiar with the Montreal area. I started out in southwestern Ontario and then headed west but any experience on either the corporate lights Jets or Twin turbo prop charter types worked great for me. I've based my time entirely in the corporate charter and I know you have that in Montreal so that might be an idea. Keep in mind the least brand name (eg. Skyservice) the better for schmoozing into a right seat for a few touch and go's. If your passion is truly all aspects of aviation then you'll stumble across that perfect company that will let you do whatever if you're valuable enough!!

[Engineseer]

If so it would be best for you to decide now whether you want this or to become an engineer. It would be very hard to do both. Just not enough time in ones life.

Has it never been done? For sure some companies would love to have a pilot who can spend his time on the ground helping maintain the fleet.

Before starting my studies to become an aeronautics engineer, I thought about becoming a pilot and came across Lufthansa's offer to follow pilot training and at the same time study to become an "Aeronautics Systems Engineer". Sounded really interesting, but Im not sure how profound the education is. A program that leaves you with your CPL, ATPL and an engineering degree? It's probably only additional education so the pilot knows his plane better, not a "real" engineering degree.
My studies to become an engineer last 5 years in total minimum, an ATPL would be another 3 years.. that's 8 years but whatfor? There arent enough hours in a week to make both educations worth the time spent imo.

[iflyforpie]

I don't know who (not talking about you AdamB) would ever think of using an AME license as simply a 'resume polisher'. It requires a lot of skill and dedication to become an AME (going to school, writing exams, filling out a log book, and being employed in the industry full time for a few years) a four year solid commitment

If someone wanted to get ahead in the flying end of things, go whore yourself out on the dock/ramp and then beg, borrow, or buy a PPC and a low paying right seat job-in four years you will be ahead.

I started out as an AME with the eventual goal of becoming a commercial pilot. It wasn't so I could get ahead. It was because I like to tinker with things, I wanted a better paying job, and I figured I might as well go into aviation. I worked as a mechanic for a flight school and got a deal on a CPL.

Now here I am ten years later, with an AME M1 M2 license, working as a pilot and a mechanic for a small charter company. There's not enough work for a either a full time pilot or mechanic here so it fits pretty good. It also encourages me to fix planes well and fly them nicely. I don't find any problems doing both jobs at the same time but if I go to a bigger company it most likely will be flying only.

Back to your original question. As for finding work, there's plenty of places that want general laborers, cleaners, or the like. All you have to do is go and ask-most require no previous experience. If you go to a friendly place and you are keen you might be able to do something fun. Every work experience student I've put through my shop I've let them in on at least one interesting job. But apprentice work is grunt work and even I still get under the belly of a plane to wipe the progressive oil change off.

As for finding what type of work you want to do? Heck even I can't answer that for myself! I started on big iron (Convair/Boeings), then went to general aviation, then back to big iron contracting, then back to general aviation where the company started getting into bigger planes, and now back onto small planes though I might do some more contracting.

I like the complexity of the big planes and the resources available to fix them, but I also like the simplicity of small planes and the fact I have the shop to myself here. Never done rotary wing but I find that interesting too.

[azimuthaviation]

I know one person who tried the whole pilot/engineer thing. He went in hoping to get two salaries for one job but ended up doing two jobs and getting one salary. That being said I still think its a good idea to pursue both. Airlines do prefer pilots who have university degrees (and the military requires it), and Ive always found those to be the better pilots. Its already late june so you may have already found a job but take a look at flying schools. If they have an AME on hand theres dozens of sign offs you can get and maybe an opportunity to get involved in some actual maintenance if they know youre interested.