whats up with wja shares? just looking at the market update, brought to me by prozac. down below $11 now!!!!! load factor down yet again, profits getting smaller and smaller, tied up with petty lawsuits with air canada and jetsgo.......shoulda bailed out when the going was good.
maybe this is something that's being discussed in the private forum which I'm not priivy to.
mind you could be a good time to pick up more.
it's a tough time to be a westjet shareholder
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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Spiraldive
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I give WJ two years or less to either start paying decent salaries to their pilots or get introduced the hard way to a pilots' union.
In their lifetimes, new-hires now can expect their share values to perhaps double or triple. Thats it. With no more paper-millionaires, guys will have to rely on salaries. Hmmm. And pilots getting hired now will wait a looong time to see the left seat. Lots of young guys in front of them who won't retire anytime soon.
And profit-sharing is a mug's game. Airlines historically have been lucky to just break even on a yearly basis. The "profit sharing" at WJ so far has been provided by two things: 1. By hiding major MX expenses from shareholders through Enron-esqe accounting practices. Share values dropped 30% the moment the market found out about it. 2. A temporary reduction in unfettered competition in the canadian market. This has allowed expansion that would arguably have not taken place anywhere near as rapidly in a different environment.
The market has re-evaluated WJ, factoring in some accounting honesty and the potential for actual competition. They have been found wanting, hence the current share price of 11$.
Anyone else think that the pilots at WJ will eventually tire of relying on shady accounting for 35% of their pay?
In their lifetimes, new-hires now can expect their share values to perhaps double or triple. Thats it. With no more paper-millionaires, guys will have to rely on salaries. Hmmm. And pilots getting hired now will wait a looong time to see the left seat. Lots of young guys in front of them who won't retire anytime soon.
And profit-sharing is a mug's game. Airlines historically have been lucky to just break even on a yearly basis. The "profit sharing" at WJ so far has been provided by two things: 1. By hiding major MX expenses from shareholders through Enron-esqe accounting practices. Share values dropped 30% the moment the market found out about it. 2. A temporary reduction in unfettered competition in the canadian market. This has allowed expansion that would arguably have not taken place anywhere near as rapidly in a different environment.
The market has re-evaluated WJ, factoring in some accounting honesty and the potential for actual competition. They have been found wanting, hence the current share price of 11$.
Anyone else think that the pilots at WJ will eventually tire of relying on shady accounting for 35% of their pay?
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North Shore
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- Location: Straight outta Dundarave...
First off, I don't work at WJ, so I don't have any particular axe to grind; and while I have sipped the water at HQ, I haven't yet drunk the cool-aid, but what is wrong with the salaries there?
I'll give you the fact that they seem to be poor at first - I've heard stories of ~$800 a cheque while you are on probation, but beyond that, what's the problem? $5K a year raises until you max at $60k for the right seat, and $80? to start in the left going to $120? That's still well above the Canadian average and for a job that most of the office drones sitting in front of their monitor in their cubicles would give their left nut to do for a living. And it's not like it's a difficult job, most of the time. Acknowledge Centre's controls, plug it into the FMS, and back to reading the National Post, BING! flight attendant, coffee, please! Oh, sh!t, the wx is down in YVR - no worries, man, engage the autoland...
Talk to guys flogging a clapped-out Navajo over the Rocks and into Castlegar about how hard their job is, the risk and their remuneration....
Yes it might suck from the perspective of a new-hire that that the first guys through the door became multi-millionaires based on their profit-sharing and stock options (when that possibility seems to be disappearing) , but what did they risk when they got hired at an untested/unproven upstart company? They took a gamble with their futures - mortgages, marriages & lifestyles and it has paid off. The alternative is to put in an application at AC or Jazz -if they start hiring again- and hope that Milton's new plan works.
WJ might not be spectacular in the pay dept., but it's nothing to sneeze at, compared to a great many other jobs, both within aviation, and without. If it doesn't work for you, then don't apply.
I'll give you the fact that they seem to be poor at first - I've heard stories of ~$800 a cheque while you are on probation, but beyond that, what's the problem? $5K a year raises until you max at $60k for the right seat, and $80? to start in the left going to $120? That's still well above the Canadian average and for a job that most of the office drones sitting in front of their monitor in their cubicles would give their left nut to do for a living. And it's not like it's a difficult job, most of the time. Acknowledge Centre's controls, plug it into the FMS, and back to reading the National Post, BING! flight attendant, coffee, please! Oh, sh!t, the wx is down in YVR - no worries, man, engage the autoland...
Talk to guys flogging a clapped-out Navajo over the Rocks and into Castlegar about how hard their job is, the risk and their remuneration....
Yes it might suck from the perspective of a new-hire that that the first guys through the door became multi-millionaires based on their profit-sharing and stock options (when that possibility seems to be disappearing) , but what did they risk when they got hired at an untested/unproven upstart company? They took a gamble with their futures - mortgages, marriages & lifestyles and it has paid off. The alternative is to put in an application at AC or Jazz -if they start hiring again- and hope that Milton's new plan works.
WJ might not be spectacular in the pay dept., but it's nothing to sneeze at, compared to a great many other jobs, both within aviation, and without. If it doesn't work for you, then don't apply.
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
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golden hawk
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Cat Driver
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G. H. :
It should be exciting.
I do however find it difficult to believe pilots read the National Post as a past time, maybe Hustler?
It should be exciting.
I do however find it difficult to believe pilots read the National Post as a past time, maybe Hustler?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I find it really interesting that the guys that are bitchin' and moanin' about Wj renumeration don't even work for the company...Everyone is an armchair expert when it comes to our take home (eh, spiraldive??).
Even with ZERO for stock, profit share, and options we still make more than CJ and JG.
Even with ZERO for stock, profit share, and options we still make more than CJ and JG.
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North Shore
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Well Cat, I'm not sure about you, but I've never read a Hustler yet............Looked at the pictures, perhaps, though! 
Golden Hawk, don't be shy, fire away. You know what they say about opinions, and that was mine...
Golden Hawk, don't be shy, fire away. You know what they say about opinions, and that was mine...
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Ya, cause WJ pilots are really bitching and moaning right now about pay...I give WJ two years or less to either start paying decent salaries to their pilots or get introduced the hard way to a pilots' union.
Just curious - how long is a "loooong" time for you?In their lifetimes, new-hires now can expect their share values to perhaps double or triple. Thats it. With no more paper-millionaires, guys will have to rely on salaries. Hmmm. And pilots getting hired now will wait a looong time to see the left seat. Lots of young guys in front of them who won't retire anytime soon.
Westjet's 737-700's do not require a C-Check (which requires an aircraft to be out of service for a long period of time). We do what is called a phase check which is basically a C-Check over a period of a time. I'm not a mechanic so I can't tell you exactly what it is, but those "accounting" accusations that were in the papers a while back were bogus.The "profit sharing" at WJ so far has been provided by two things: 1. By major MX expenses from shareholders through Enron-esqe accounting practices. Share values dropped 30% the moment the market found out about it.
Earth to SpiralDive, the past 8 years weren't a dream! What happened, happened - get over it.2. A temporary reduction in unfettered competition in the canadian market. This has allowed expansion that would arguably have not taken place anywhere near as rapidly in a different environment.
The market has re-evaluated WJA. Why (in no particular order)?:The market has re-evaluated WJ, factoring in some accounting honesty and the potential for actual competition. They have been found wanting, hence the current share price of 11$.
Anyone else think that the pilots at WJ will eventually tire of relying on shady accounting for 35% of their pay?
1. Record high fuel prices and airport fees
2. Increased competition from Jetsgo and Air Canada
3. Uncertainty over AC and SG lawsuits and legal fees associated with them
4. Longer stage and trip lengths
5. Capacity increases in domestic market
There is the perception that Westjet may be evolving into a less efficient carrier, but that is not the case. It would appear as though the "litigation overhang" (as the analysts are calling it) is having a dramatic effect on share price. Sure revenue is down, yield is down, load factor is down, but would you expect anything less given the environment Westjet is facing (primarily competition from SG and AC)? The times are not great, I'm not going to lie to you, but that doesn't mean the sky is falling. I haven't seen Chicken Little anywhere near us yet.
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Spiraldive
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C-Eh: Hmmm.
Just ask many of the senior ex-CDN co-pilots what a looong time is. Flew jumpseat with a '37 crew a few years back (when you could still do that). The co-pilot had 25 years in already and said he would never hold a Cpt's spot. Just because he had been hired at the end of a long run of hiring. Just like WJ has had lately. So the question is - will WJ's copilots be happy maxing out at 60K/year for the rest of their careers? If you do in fact work for them, please enlighten us.
The accounting issue with the C-checks had nothing to do with when the work was actually done, or in what manner. A phase check is essentially a C-check done in small parts over many years, true. But what most airlines do is amortize the cost of those checks over the number of years between them. Westjet was NOT writing those costs down until the final year that the phase check was completed, thereby deferring costs and increasing apparent profit in the intervening years. Hence the Wall St. stink about it. Westjet has since started including those costs annually on the balance sheet.
So no, the "accounting accusations" were not bogus. If you have trouble understanding how they weren't, just remember Wimpy from the Popeye cartoons- "I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today".
Dude, I'm not the one dreaming. That would be WJ. Living in airline la-la land for the last 8 years.
No question, lots of WJ people have done VERY well in those years, and damn good for them. I'm just asking the simple question of what can be expected in the future for new people there? Is maxing out after 5 or six years OK, if you might be looking at another 20 years in the same seat? Yes, it might not happen, but it could.
And one thing to remember before you start chanting the company profit-sharing mantra:
It's as easy for accountants to make profits "vanish" as it is for them to make them "appear". Do you really think you would have noticed if they wrote down the entire cost of those c-checks in the FIRST year instead of the LAST, because profit-sharing cheques were getting a little too high?
Just ask many of the senior ex-CDN co-pilots what a looong time is. Flew jumpseat with a '37 crew a few years back (when you could still do that). The co-pilot had 25 years in already and said he would never hold a Cpt's spot. Just because he had been hired at the end of a long run of hiring. Just like WJ has had lately. So the question is - will WJ's copilots be happy maxing out at 60K/year for the rest of their careers? If you do in fact work for them, please enlighten us.
The accounting issue with the C-checks had nothing to do with when the work was actually done, or in what manner. A phase check is essentially a C-check done in small parts over many years, true. But what most airlines do is amortize the cost of those checks over the number of years between them. Westjet was NOT writing those costs down until the final year that the phase check was completed, thereby deferring costs and increasing apparent profit in the intervening years. Hence the Wall St. stink about it. Westjet has since started including those costs annually on the balance sheet.
So no, the "accounting accusations" were not bogus. If you have trouble understanding how they weren't, just remember Wimpy from the Popeye cartoons- "I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today".
Dude, I'm not the one dreaming. That would be WJ. Living in airline la-la land for the last 8 years.
No question, lots of WJ people have done VERY well in those years, and damn good for them. I'm just asking the simple question of what can be expected in the future for new people there? Is maxing out after 5 or six years OK, if you might be looking at another 20 years in the same seat? Yes, it might not happen, but it could.
And one thing to remember before you start chanting the company profit-sharing mantra:
It's as easy for accountants to make profits "vanish" as it is for them to make them "appear". Do you really think you would have noticed if they wrote down the entire cost of those c-checks in the FIRST year instead of the LAST, because profit-sharing cheques were getting a little too high?
I have to admit you did teach me a little about the costs of our maintenance checks, so thanks.
I'm not a pilot, so I can't say with 100% certainty how things are going to turn out. I do hear that the pilots are comfortable with how they are compensated (junior and senior). I also hear that the stock options are not going to be around forever. Hopefully someone who is a pilot can better answer your questions regarding upgrades, but one can speculate that with 15 aircraft coming online next year and talk of 100 aircraft by 2010 that there will be plenty of room for upgrades in the coming years.
I'm not a pilot, so I can't say with 100% certainty how things are going to turn out. I do hear that the pilots are comfortable with how they are compensated (junior and senior). I also hear that the stock options are not going to be around forever. Hopefully someone who is a pilot can better answer your questions regarding upgrades, but one can speculate that with 15 aircraft coming online next year and talk of 100 aircraft by 2010 that there will be plenty of room for upgrades in the coming years.
MX accounting-the interesting point here that you seem to be unaware of is that the way the mx is/was accounted for as a part of total cost of the aircraft. The aircraft payment amortization was done in a unique way that actually has a constant and flat principal, with a declining interest payment as the principal is payed down. As the principal decreases, of course so do the interest payments. The decline in the interest payments is offset (to some point) by the mx costs, in differing amounts over time as the projected mx costs increase as the planes get older. The actual cost of running the aircraft, principal/interest/mx, actually is at its lowest I believe somewhere between year 10-15 of its life, and then it creeps back up towards where it is when it is new.
I confess I hadn't come across this type of capital amortization before, but it was brilliant in the way it looked long term. Most companies are quite happy to pay as little as possible now, with some type of accounting for future mx expenses (what you are thinking of). But because WJ's financial position is so strong, they were able to do it this way which allowed total cost of owning and operating the airplane to decrease over time, as opposed to increase.
Of course, this is also different than how most of us pay off our house mortgage---we pay a flat payment to cover both principal and interest, and as we pay off principal, the amount that has to go towards interest slowly decreases, and the amount towards principal increases proportionately. The way WJ does it, that principal amount is constant, and the interest payment declines independently.
Hope this clears things up. BTW, WJ invited the writer of that article ( who apparently has a history of negativity towards WJ) to show everything to him (it is in the annual report) and explain it to him, but after writing the article, he never wanted to get back to them.
I don't have time to get into the rest of those 'issues' you raised
I confess I hadn't come across this type of capital amortization before, but it was brilliant in the way it looked long term. Most companies are quite happy to pay as little as possible now, with some type of accounting for future mx expenses (what you are thinking of). But because WJ's financial position is so strong, they were able to do it this way which allowed total cost of owning and operating the airplane to decrease over time, as opposed to increase.
Of course, this is also different than how most of us pay off our house mortgage---we pay a flat payment to cover both principal and interest, and as we pay off principal, the amount that has to go towards interest slowly decreases, and the amount towards principal increases proportionately. The way WJ does it, that principal amount is constant, and the interest payment declines independently.
Hope this clears things up. BTW, WJ invited the writer of that article ( who apparently has a history of negativity towards WJ) to show everything to him (it is in the annual report) and explain it to him, but after writing the article, he never wanted to get back to them.
I don't have time to get into the rest of those 'issues' you raised
Number 1: Employees are brainwashed on their first day. It's non-stop until retirement, or when you "go". Support group for ex-WJ employee not available.
Number 2: WJ employees of all trade are the lowest paid in the industry. Period.
Number 3: WJ compensate with company stocks and profit share. WJ does not warn it's employees that company-shares = Las Vegas (You loose some, you win none)
Number 4: Hail the leader. The leader is good, the leader is great, the leader speaks the truth and the leader can do no wrong.
Number 5: If the above don't work for you, WJ will promise to do something about it......and then do nothing
Number 6: WJ uses creative accounting to "fudge" the books. Looks good for investors and it keeps the slaves...hmm..the employees in-line
Number 7: Don't worry, things will get better. The reasons you're not stricking gold, yet, is because of big, bad, mean, satan-like Air Canada
Number 8: See number 4
Number 9: It's time for your brain-washing session
Number 10: Unions are on their way.....
Number 11: Wait until the new aircraft are no longer new. Can you say: Decline and company profits? I knew you could...
Number 2: WJ employees of all trade are the lowest paid in the industry. Period.
Number 3: WJ compensate with company stocks and profit share. WJ does not warn it's employees that company-shares = Las Vegas (You loose some, you win none)
Number 4: Hail the leader. The leader is good, the leader is great, the leader speaks the truth and the leader can do no wrong.
Number 5: If the above don't work for you, WJ will promise to do something about it......and then do nothing
Number 6: WJ uses creative accounting to "fudge" the books. Looks good for investors and it keeps the slaves...hmm..the employees in-line
Number 7: Don't worry, things will get better. The reasons you're not stricking gold, yet, is because of big, bad, mean, satan-like Air Canada
Number 8: See number 4
Number 9: It's time for your brain-washing session
Number 10: Unions are on their way.....
Number 11: Wait until the new aircraft are no longer new. Can you say: Decline and company profits? I knew you could...
Blast....
In defense of WJ (which by the way I don't care what they do or don't do)at least they didn't have a anorexic french canadian singer with bad skin promoting their product.
What were you folks thinking. At least you could have got Avril Lavigne in a school girl outfit stomping around the tarmac madder than hell because she had to pay 12$ for a chicken cold plate!!!
In defense of WJ (which by the way I don't care what they do or don't do)at least they didn't have a anorexic french canadian singer with bad skin promoting their product.
What were you folks thinking. At least you could have got Avril Lavigne in a school girl outfit stomping around the tarmac madder than hell because she had to pay 12$ for a chicken cold plate!!!
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Cat Driver
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