Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

[CID]

If I may ask a question. The pilot is said to have reported a problem with a gyro to ATC. If that indeed was the case, should a gyro problem have caused the accident?

Generally, no. It depends a great deal on the experience of the pilot and the condition of the systems on the airplane. It may have been equipped with a standby horizon but was it working? Another question is if he indeed had two operational gyros, were they powered from the same source.

We all know they shouldn't be, but I've actually seen instances where they are. It can be tricky for a "less" experienced pilot to detect failure of the artificial horizon. Imagine if both failed at the same time.

As before of course, this is all speculation.

[the_professor]

Besides that, a failed gyro does not produce these results. Steady heading with the DG and turn co-ordinator. Check the VSI and altimeter. If going down, pull up and watch the airspeed, when it stops increasing, that's level attitude. If going up, check forward and do the same thing. Then find some clear air and get down.

There are a lot of emergencies, including gyro failure, that sound very simple when you're reading it from a list on the ground. A long list of gyro-induced accidents proves the reality of dealing with it is far from simple, so I don't know why you say it "does not produce these results".

It is not unheard of for a pilot to lose control while flying off the standby gyro, or the cojoe's gyro, depending on how proficient you are with your scan, and how often you've practiced it.

And if it were as simple as flying a heading, watching your airspeed/altitude, and finding clear air, nobody would bother to install backup gyros in the first place. Your description is a gross oversimplification.

[Dex]

How are these Piper aircraft in icing conditions?

[Ogee]

And if it were as simple as flying a heading, watching your airspeed/altitude, and finding clear air, nobody would bother to install backup gyros in the first place. Your description is a gross oversimplification.

My description is not a gross oversimplification. If you have some point to make, make it, but try and restrain yourself from ignorant comments like you have made in this paragraph.

As for your "nobody would bother to install backup gyros in the first place" comment, you are seeking to win some argument by venturing into the idiotic. I don't know what kind of a professor you are, but I doubt it has anything to do with avionics or an understanding of what IFR flying is all about.

What's next down the road. An argument that a second mag is unnecessary because the first one works just fine?

[Jaques Strappe]

I flew the Mirage when it first came out in the late 80's. The initial Malibu came with a Continental, then the Mirage came with a Lycoming, then they put a turbine in it.

Even back in the 80's, they had issues with in flight breakups. They were not sure if it was the fact that private pilots were flying up at 25,000 feet dodging thunderstorms with little experience doing so or what but I do seem to remember that the maneuvering speed was quite low.

[MrWings]

Interesting comment from the lead TSB investigator:

"The pilot reported some problems with his instruments and if you're flying in cloud or whatever that you don't have visual reference, then the instruments are the only thing you can rely on and if you have instrument problems, it makes it much more difficult," he explained at an Edmonton news conference.

Tsuji said he doesn't believe pilot error was a factor in the crash. Williams, 41, a father of one, had commercial and private pilot licences and regularly flew the firm's aircraft.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story ... amily.html

[CID]

Hmm..kind of early for an investigator to declare that in my opinion.

[MrWings]

My thought exactly. Usually they are pretty hush-hush about any comment before the investigation is complete. So this is surprising. And also biases the investigation, doesn't it?

[Ogee]

Yes, that's very unusual for the TSB guy to say that at this stage.

Failure of a gyro in IFR flight is not a reason for the wings and tail to be separated from the aircraft. That result was not inevitable once the gyro had failed. It results because, once the gyro had failed, the pilot made errors in how he chose to deal with that failure and as a consequence of those errors the aircraft crashed.

Other pilots, probably the great majority of pilots, would have maintained control of the aircraft.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Does a Malibu have a glass cockpit?

[ditar]

This photo of the cockpit shows what instruments were available. There was a complete set of backup instruments on the copilot side.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

What happened to pilots being taught unusual attitude recovery by reference to the basic instruments.....needle/ball and airspeed?

Hell we had to be proficient with that method of recovery in the Cessna 140's to pass the CPL ride over fifty years ago.

By the way I am not suggesting that was the cause of this accident...only commenting on the fact that recovery from unusual attitudes using basic instruments is basic a flying training requirement.

[stratcat]

I thought airspeed indicators stick where they were when a plane crashes, this one is 0 or wrapped right around back up to the top. By the look of the wreckage it was stalled and freefalled to the ground.

[Tiny Voices]

What happened to pilots being taught unusual attitude recovery by reference to the basic instruments.....needle/ball and airspeed?

Hell we had to be proficient with that method of recovery in the Cessna 140's to pass the CPL ride over fifty years ago.

By the way I am not suggesting that was the cause of this accident...only commenting on the fact that recovery from unusual attitudes using basic instruments is basic a flying training requirement.

How often did you, i, or anyone else take the time to practice these basic skills in the post training world? Might be worth the expense to have someone proficient in teaching IFR take you (not you specifically ...."you" meaning anyone engaged in this activity) up for a refresher in such things from time to time. Perhaps an FAA type requirement for a biannual flight review?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

When flying IFR I covered up different instruments on a regular basis and flew with the remaining ones just to keep proficient on flying partial panel.....including the approaches to minimums.

Then if I lost some it was no big deal.

The glass panels of course are another issue, it is a bit difficult to cover up display screens and fly on the stand by steam gages because of all the information the screens give you that would be lost.

[CID]

I thought airspeed indicators stick where they were when a plane crashes, this one is 0 or wrapped right around back up to the top.

That's true for accidents that cause the needle to be trapped by the busted glass or other mechanical failure or by electric altitude indicators if the air data computer loses power upon impact.

Also, if the airspeed indicator indicates 0, it just might have been sensing 0. It depends on the attitude of the airplane and the condition of the pitot/static system.

[groundpilot]

"Yes, that's very unusual for the TSB guy to say that at this stage.

Failure of a gyro in IFR flight is not a reason for the wings and tail to be separated from the aircraft. That result was not inevitable once the gyro had failed. It results because, once the gyro had failed, the pilot made errors in how he chose to deal with that failure and as a consequence of those errors the aircraft crashed.

Other pilots, probably the great majority of pilots, would have maintained control of the aircraft."

Yes, this is very odd. Borderline incompentent for an investigator to say something like this that early in an investigation.(Hopefully he was misquoted) Anyhow, since when does an emergency clear the pilot of any responsibility and thus not being labeled with "pilot error". Isn't this our primary responsibility? Getting yourself and passengers home no matter what is wrong with the aircraft? I know losing your gyro's is less then ideal but hardly cosmic, as an instrument rated pilot you have had training on this exact emergency.

[small penguin]

as an instrument rated pilot you have had training on this exact emergency.

As a non-instrument rated pilot I received (basic) training on how to fly with one or two instruments "dead". These kinds of accidents appear to be way too common.

cpl_atc Im no expert, and I dont know the g-limit on the PA-46, but Im sure a spiral dive from FL260 to 0agl would have torn the plane to pieces. I've no idea what happened, but Im willing to be pilot error played a major role. The wings didnt just snap off on their own granted that, but what caused them to snap? Imporper flying/recovery technique by the pilot? If indeed he did enter a spiral dive... and again Im no expert but... how do you enter a spiral dive from (lets assume) straight and level just because of a "problem with a gyro".

[small penguin]

Ah, gotcha for the autopilot chasing the dead gyro.

Forgive my newbiness, I dont exactly have first hand experience with gyro failures, but say the engine driven gyro fails (artificial horizon and heading indicator correct?) I'd assume there'd be a period of time where the instrument is still somewhat responsive/accurate as it takes time for the indicator's gyros to spin down. It wont just drop dead right? Though Im sure FAIL flags would pop up right away if the instrument has them?

Say it was an electric driven gyro failure, all that would be lost is turn and bank? Say both gyro systems fail, you're left with an ASI, altimeter, and VSI, and a compass. And ignoring any back up instruments or any "secondary" instruments on the co-pilot side, would pitot-static instruments and a compass be enough to keep the airplane flying in IMC? Granted you'd still (IMO) want to declare emergency, but could the plane still be ok on just those basics in IMC?

[CID]

Your time to react to gyro failures can be severely decreased by certain factors. I'm not necessarily suggesting anything here but a fully loaded (or overloaded) aircraft operating at it's service ceiling doesn't have much wiggle room to recover from sudden abrupt maneuvers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_(aviation)

This type of thing can be miscontrued as an autopilot failure when in fact the autopilot is struggling to maintain it's altitude.

[L1011]

What happened to pilots being taught unusual attitude recovery by reference to the basic instruments.....needle/ball and airspeed?

Hell we had to be proficient with that method of recovery in the Cessna 140's to pass the CPL ride over fifty years ago.

By the way I am not suggesting that was the cause of this accident...only commenting on the fact that recovery from unusual attitudes using basic instruments is basic a flying training requirement.

We're talking about a non-professional pilot here. Granted, a non-professional pilot who decided to take off single crew in a single-engine aircraft into IMC with the responsibility of 4 other lives. But a non-professional pilot nonetheless.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

We're talking about a non-professional pilot here.

So to fly an airplane capable of high altitude IFR and equipped with all the equipment that is necessary to fly in that environment you must be a professional pilot?? WTF exactly is a professional pilot?

Granted, a non-professional pilot who decided to take off single crew in a single-engine aircraft into IMC with the responsibility of 4 other lives. But a non-professional pilot nonetheless.

So who trained him and who gave him his license and who passed him on his check rides?

Maybe I'm missing something here?

[The Hammer]

.

Is there any legal (not insurance) requirement for a private operator to complete recurrent training on this a/c??? No type rating is needed and IFR check ride could have legally been done on your C140.....

Anyone know what the usual insurance requiremnts are for this a/c with regards to training?

PS This a/c should have had a vacuum pump and a standby "jet pump" to provide adequate suction for gyro's

[small penguin]

I think the point L1011 was making was... Just because its legal to do something, doesnt mean you should do it.

Heck how many of you bashed me on the low level flying! And then this accident happened.

[Hedley]

PS This a/c should have had a vacuum pump and a standby "jet pump" to provide adequate suction for gyro's

When I used to fly IFR with a single-engine and
one vacuum pump (M20J) I had a second, electric
attitude indicator installed so that if I lost the vacuum
pump (they fail around every 500 hrs) it wasn't
that big a deal. Not sure why I am the only person
who has ever considered this scenario before. I
didn't think my life was worth less than a 2nd gyro.

But what would I know, compared to the genius mechanics
and wealthy CEO owner/operators around here? I only
have 30+ years of accident free aviation experience,
which I am told here is irrelevant.

Have at it, moderators! Start censoring this NOW.