No bashing please !!!! Just trying to inform the newbies about the possible consequences of their actions......
Post-flight beers prove costly for three pilots
By: Aldo Santin
Updated: April 3 at 02:00 AM CDT
Article Having a beer with their dinner has cost three young pilots a suspension without pay.
Mark Wehrle, general manager of Perimeter Aviation, confirmed Wednesday night that Transport Canada had suspended the licences of three pilots for a three-week period stemming from an incident in September.
Wehrle said the three pilots -- one has since moved on to a larger airline -- had flown a cargo run to Fargo. While having dinner down there after they arrived, they each had a beer. Wehrle said the three young men brought their planes home the next morning. However, Wehrle said that pilots are prohibited from consuming alcohol for eight hours before they take-off.
"It turns out that this was at the 7.5-hour mark," Wehrle said. "Someone on the flight crew reported it to us and they confirmed that it happened."
Wehrle said he didn't think the actions of the three young pilots, all believed to be in their mid-20s, had put their aircraft or the public at risk but added it was a violation of the rules nonetheless and Perimeter suspended them for three weeks without pay at the time, adding the company also reported it to Transport Canada.
Wehrle said Transport Canada investigated the incident and informed Perimeter this week that the three men would be formally sanctioned with a further three-week suspension of their licences.
"We didn't consider what they had done to be reckless," Wehrle said. "They admitted what they had done wrong and realized it was a mistake. It's part of growing up."
Wehrle said the third pilot left Perimeter for an opportunity to fly larger aircraft, adding he told the other airline about the incident when they made a background check.
"They weren't too concerned about it because they hired him on," Wehrle said. "His current employer was informed of the Transport Canada sanction and he won't be flying either."
Perimeter Aviation is a locally owned firm with more than 100 pilots, and operates a flight training school, charter and contract flying and a full-service maintenance bureau for other small airlines. Its website boasts that its clients include Great-West Life, Canwest Global, Reimer Express, James Richardson Sons, United Parcel Service, Air Canada, Purolator Courier and Brinks Canada.
Wehrle said that two of the pilots were first officers at the time and the other was a recently promoted captain. He said that all three are now captains.
"They've worked hard to get where they are but they made a mistake," Wehrle said. "It was poor judgment on their part but it wasn't a heinous crime."
I thought american beer didn't count
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YWG Sequoia cleaner
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Re: I thought american beer didn't count
So they had one beer and then flew 7.5 hours later and that was bad.
But they could have drank 8 beers and flew 8 hours later and that would be OK.
Stupid rule.
But they could have drank 8 beers and flew 8 hours later and that would be OK.
Stupid rule.
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
I've known airline pilots to get well and truly soused in the past...
There's a certain unhappiness that is associated with that job.
Many of these guys and girls had serious troubles with relationships.
BA had a scheme for drying out alcoholic pilots, it was a common problem.
As for American beer... I'm British, the Americans lost the recipe when they lost their colonial status.
They could still be drinking decent beer that doesn't have to be frozen to taste good.
I've drunk American beer, it gives you a headache and doesn't seem to have any alcohol in it!
Sam Smiths was alright though...
As for Canada, and 7.5 hour bottle to throttle. It just shows how far things have gone since a glass of wine was the norm for Air France pilots... and then there were the Bush Pilots that pioneered flying in Canada with their glass of Brandy or Rum before they took off into the cold air.
There's a certain unhappiness that is associated with that job.
Many of these guys and girls had serious troubles with relationships.
BA had a scheme for drying out alcoholic pilots, it was a common problem.
As for American beer... I'm British, the Americans lost the recipe when they lost their colonial status.
They could still be drinking decent beer that doesn't have to be frozen to taste good.
I've drunk American beer, it gives you a headache and doesn't seem to have any alcohol in it!
Sam Smiths was alright though...
As for Canada, and 7.5 hour bottle to throttle. It just shows how far things have gone since a glass of wine was the norm for Air France pilots... and then there were the Bush Pilots that pioneered flying in Canada with their glass of Brandy or Rum before they took off into the cold air.
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Axial Flow
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Re: I thought american beer didn't count
That's why it's better to drink alone in your room so nobody could corroborate that you drank 7.5 hours before 
It's one of those things that if you chose to chance it and get caught then that's your own fault. Nobody cares if it was one beer just as a cop doesn't care if you sped 20 km's over the speed limit compared to 40 km's over it is still breaking a rule. Opinion doesn't matter it is what it is so live within the confines or chance it.
It's one of those things that if you chose to chance it and get caught then that's your own fault. Nobody cares if it was one beer just as a cop doesn't care if you sped 20 km's over the speed limit compared to 40 km's over it is still breaking a rule. Opinion doesn't matter it is what it is so live within the confines or chance it.
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
"one beer at the 7.5 hr mark", "a member of the flight crew reported it". Loser. "Teacher, teacher!! You forgot our homework!"
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
One beer is all they admitted to,
strong evidence suggests that it was many more, until much later - and that it had been going on for a while on that run
strong evidence suggests that it was many more, until much later - and that it had been going on for a while on that run
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viccoastdog
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Re: I thought american beer didn't count
I understand the point you're trying to make, but 8 beers followed by flying 8 hours later probably means you're still inebriated when you're flying and that's not OK. So it's not really a stupid rule.MrWings wrote:So they had one beer and then flew 7.5 hours later and that was bad.
But they could have drank 8 beers and flew 8 hours later and that would be OK.
Stupid rule.
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
That would make more sense.stevie y wrote:One beer is all they admitted to,
strong evidence suggests that it was many more, until much later - and that it had been going on for a while on that run
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
FYI, the 8 beers in 8 hours...
CARS says something to the effect that flying should not follow heavy or extensive drinking for at least 24 (might even be 48 hours)
CARS says something to the effect that flying should not follow heavy or extensive drinking for at least 24 (might even be 48 hours)
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
It's simply mind-boggling that no one knows
what the rules are:
alcohol in your bloodstream, or are hungover (602.03(b))
then you are "under the influence of alcohol".
what the rules are:
Eight hours after drinking 8 beers, if you still have measurableCAR 602.03 No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft
(a) within eight hours after consuming an alcoholic beverage;
(b) while under the influence of alcohol;
alcohol in your bloodstream, or are hungover (602.03(b))
then you are "under the influence of alcohol".
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
thanks for the accurate info, i'm a little hungover and couldnt remember the rules
shit, i'm late, better get to the airport...
shit, i'm late, better get to the airport...
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
I was assuming that the person wasn't a lightweight and wouldn't be under the influence of alcohol after 8 hours. Although, I admit, a person still could be after drinking 8 beers.
Perhaps I should have said several beers.
The point is the 1 American beer isn't a problem after 7.5 hours. Although, there seems to be more to this story than just the one beer.
Perhaps I should have said several beers.
The point is the 1 American beer isn't a problem after 7.5 hours. Although, there seems to be more to this story than just the one beer.
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
8 Hours bottle to Duty time aside. One thing this article did not mention is that they were currently on duty. The Duty time for that specific flight starts in the evening around 8ish and finishes the next morning, then you get your eight hours rest during the day. This is not a layover, and never has been. Yes the pilots are given a place to stay, but when they return to ywg they are not expected to work as they are at the end of their duty day.
Just going thru the CAR's. And i can confirm there is no sliding scale for 8 hours and number of beers..
Just going thru the CAR's. And i can confirm there is no sliding scale for 8 hours and number of beers..
Last edited by YWG Shame on Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
Those guys could have waited for the BBB (before breakfast beer) so famous among the night cargo dogs.... 
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
Since it was two F.O's and one captain drinking, what happened to the Captain that took off in the morning knowing that THE F.O. had been drinking?
Where was the command decision to delay the flight for that whole .5 of an hour to make it legal.
Instead the captain tried to get them all fired when they got back.
Do you not hold some responsibility as the captain of that aircraft in the grand scheme of things?
***Edited***
stl
Where was the command decision to delay the flight for that whole .5 of an hour to make it legal.
Instead the captain tried to get them all fired when they got back.
Do you not hold some responsibility as the captain of that aircraft in the grand scheme of things?
***Edited***
stl
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
would like to express my disappointment in this article. I was employed by Perimeter as a senior Captain at the time of the incident and I spoke very strongly against the pilots’ actions. I recall the incident very clearly, and saw the outcry from my co-workers. I also witnessed the resignation of my mentor over the incident.
My problem with what Mark Wehrle says is that ultimately he makes it seam like it's not a big deal. He states that nobody was ever at risk...please allow me to rebut the article.
Mark Wehrle defends the pilots by stating that it "...was at the 7.5 hour mark..." which immediately brings up a very legitimate debate, is it a big deal or not? I suppose one could say "it's close enough, how is it a big deal?" or "they ALMOST had 8 hours." My simple reply is this...
If I'm within one inch of the hole playing golf, is it close enough?
My life support machine ALMOST had enough electricity to run.
The rule actually states that one must not consume alcohol within 8 hours of ACTING AS A CREWMEMBER. Not only did they DEPART 7.5 hours after consuming alcohol, they completed a pre flight walk around of the aircraft, a flight plan and weather check (roughly 1 hour). These actions are those of a crew member on duty. Speaking of being ON DUTY, the flight block these crew members were satisfying was called a 'SAND UP' which actually means they were ON DUTY even WHILE they were consuming their alcohol.
Since WHEN does violating the LAW not put the public at risk? Canadian Air Regulations (CARS) is a legal document enforced by Transport Canada in order to keep the public safe. The Highway Traffic Act protects us on the road, and CARS protects us in the air. Any time a speed limit is broken, the public is at risk. As I see it, if the traffic laws are followed, the public’s risk is REASONABLE (risk management) and falls within an acceptable range. If we manipulate that range, then we increase risk to an UNREASONABLE level. Is flying any different?
If I choose to exceed a speed limit on the road, cut someone off, and run a red light, the ticket I'm sure to receive will include the word "reckless." Since T.C. suspended these three pilots, I'm pretty sure they considered their actions reckless.
So let me ask you this; If drinking on the job is part of growing up (implying they had some growing up to do), and T.C. considers it serious enough to initiate a suspension, why was (at the time) one of them promoted to Captain?
I will also note, one of the three offenders did not issue a public apology or admission of guilt.
Commuter airlines in Canada like Perimeter have a serious problem with 'letting things slide.' This incident initially held no consequences for these three pilots. They were not going to receive any company suspension, and they were not going to be reported to Transport Canada. It was simply going to disappear. People like myself and other concerned employees spoke up so strongly (including one who resigned due to the lack of morals of the company) that something had to be done.
With the aviation industry in such a boom right now, far more inexperienced pilots are being given promotions to captain. We trust our lives to these people to protect us and follow rules which are designed to prevent accidents. Companies like Perimeter must also be held accountable for allowing their employees to INTENTIONALLY and KNOWINGLY violate a law. Where are the standards of professionalism?
I see this article as a bit of a lour for people to say "what's the big deal?" So I ask one more very simple question;
If you knew your pilot had been drinking within 6.5 hours of acting as the crewmember who will fly you and your family somewhere, would you still go? I know I wouldn't.
--Static
My problem with what Mark Wehrle says is that ultimately he makes it seam like it's not a big deal. He states that nobody was ever at risk...please allow me to rebut the article.
Mark Wehrle defends the pilots by stating that it "...was at the 7.5 hour mark..." which immediately brings up a very legitimate debate, is it a big deal or not? I suppose one could say "it's close enough, how is it a big deal?" or "they ALMOST had 8 hours." My simple reply is this...
If I'm within one inch of the hole playing golf, is it close enough?
My life support machine ALMOST had enough electricity to run.
The rule actually states that one must not consume alcohol within 8 hours of ACTING AS A CREWMEMBER. Not only did they DEPART 7.5 hours after consuming alcohol, they completed a pre flight walk around of the aircraft, a flight plan and weather check (roughly 1 hour). These actions are those of a crew member on duty. Speaking of being ON DUTY, the flight block these crew members were satisfying was called a 'SAND UP' which actually means they were ON DUTY even WHILE they were consuming their alcohol.
Since WHEN does violating the LAW not put the public at risk? Canadian Air Regulations (CARS) is a legal document enforced by Transport Canada in order to keep the public safe. The Highway Traffic Act protects us on the road, and CARS protects us in the air. Any time a speed limit is broken, the public is at risk. As I see it, if the traffic laws are followed, the public’s risk is REASONABLE (risk management) and falls within an acceptable range. If we manipulate that range, then we increase risk to an UNREASONABLE level. Is flying any different?
If I choose to exceed a speed limit on the road, cut someone off, and run a red light, the ticket I'm sure to receive will include the word "reckless." Since T.C. suspended these three pilots, I'm pretty sure they considered their actions reckless.
So let me ask you this; If drinking on the job is part of growing up (implying they had some growing up to do), and T.C. considers it serious enough to initiate a suspension, why was (at the time) one of them promoted to Captain?
I will also note, one of the three offenders did not issue a public apology or admission of guilt.
Commuter airlines in Canada like Perimeter have a serious problem with 'letting things slide.' This incident initially held no consequences for these three pilots. They were not going to receive any company suspension, and they were not going to be reported to Transport Canada. It was simply going to disappear. People like myself and other concerned employees spoke up so strongly (including one who resigned due to the lack of morals of the company) that something had to be done.
With the aviation industry in such a boom right now, far more inexperienced pilots are being given promotions to captain. We trust our lives to these people to protect us and follow rules which are designed to prevent accidents. Companies like Perimeter must also be held accountable for allowing their employees to INTENTIONALLY and KNOWINGLY violate a law. Where are the standards of professionalism?
I see this article as a bit of a lour for people to say "what's the big deal?" So I ask one more very simple question;
If you knew your pilot had been drinking within 6.5 hours of acting as the crewmember who will fly you and your family somewhere, would you still go? I know I wouldn't.
--Static
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Captain Crunch
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Re: I thought american beer didn't count
edited
Last edited by Captain Crunch on Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Captain Crunch
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sky's the limit
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Re: I thought american beer didn't count
Lets try to keep names, initials and implications of who was involved to a minimum here please. I understand any of you who are familiar with the situation know who was involved, but please refrain from using names or initials.
I'm happy to let this one go as a discussion of drinking and flying, but if it starts to degenerate, it's gone.
stl
I'm happy to let this one go as a discussion of drinking and flying, but if it starts to degenerate, it's gone.
stl
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
Busted;
In case you are wondering who ratted on you, it was I. You seem to like doing this kind of thing from your previous posts and have a problem with rats. Well, if that is the case, I am a rat. You purposely used the captain's gender to cleverly identify her, knowing how many women pilots there are at the company and that people would zero in on who it was. So if you have a problem, take it up with me. I think it is quite an underhanded way of pin pointing a defenceless person, whether they are right or wrong. I would back you up the same way if somebody did it to you.
And to the other posters who back up the no drinking policy, Bravo!
carholme
In case you are wondering who ratted on you, it was I. You seem to like doing this kind of thing from your previous posts and have a problem with rats. Well, if that is the case, I am a rat. You purposely used the captain's gender to cleverly identify her, knowing how many women pilots there are at the company and that people would zero in on who it was. So if you have a problem, take it up with me. I think it is quite an underhanded way of pin pointing a defenceless person, whether they are right or wrong. I would back you up the same way if somebody did it to you.
And to the other posters who back up the no drinking policy, Bravo!
carholme
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
Carlhome wrote:
Considered making that your sig?I am a rat
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
Hedley;
No need for childish antics. I would even do the same for you. It is a right of the forum to have your identity protected,
carholme
No need for childish antics. I would even do the same for you. It is a right of the forum to have your identity protected,
carholme
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
This thread is a very interesting one and I would like to see it stay up.
You, dear poster, can help out by not naming anyone. If someone uses real names in this thread, please drop me a PM so I can edit the post rather than having to toast the thread. If someone uses real names, that's gonna be a strike or two against them at the very min.
You, dear poster, can help out by not naming anyone. If someone uses real names in this thread, please drop me a PM so I can edit the post rather than having to toast the thread. If someone uses real names, that's gonna be a strike or two against them at the very min.
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sky's the limit
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Re: I thought american beer didn't count
sky's the limit wrote:Lets try to keep names, initials and implications of who was involved to a minimum here please. I understand any of you who are familiar with the situation know who was involved, but please refrain from using names or initials.
I'm happy to let this one go as a discussion of drinking and flying, but if it starts to degenerate, it's gone.
stl
Boy,
I really hate to quote myself.... But in this case......
Strike two.
stl
Re: I thought american beer didn't count
After having lunch with about 8 ex-PAG captains today, I feel like sharing how every one of us feels this is a disgrace.
Although I don't work there anymore, I feel confident in saying, based on what I heard from MANY MANY pilots there, that this WAS NOT one beer with dinner. This WAS NOT a one time event.
There was no 3-week suspension without pay. They were given 3 weeks off and paid their vacation pay in the middle of the summer.
All 3 of them should have been fired, the truth should not have been hidden, and these 3 should have had thier careers ended. And they would have if the real story had come out.
I agree with those who say the captain who reported the incident should have had some disciplinary action taken against them for flying with an FO in that condition. Those props never should have turned that morning in KFAR. The proper time for that captain to have reported the incident was that morning, and not to company management, but to the Fargo Police Department and the FAA.
I know one of them is a poster on here - care to make a rebuttal to what is being said about you???
Although I don't work there anymore, I feel confident in saying, based on what I heard from MANY MANY pilots there, that this WAS NOT one beer with dinner. This WAS NOT a one time event.
There was no 3-week suspension without pay. They were given 3 weeks off and paid their vacation pay in the middle of the summer.
All 3 of them should have been fired, the truth should not have been hidden, and these 3 should have had thier careers ended. And they would have if the real story had come out.
I agree with those who say the captain who reported the incident should have had some disciplinary action taken against them for flying with an FO in that condition. Those props never should have turned that morning in KFAR. The proper time for that captain to have reported the incident was that morning, and not to company management, but to the Fargo Police Department and the FAA.
I know one of them is a poster on here - care to make a rebuttal to what is being said about you???
"The South will boogie again."
