Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

[CID]

Your time to react to gyro failures can be severely decreased by certain factors. I'm not necessarily suggesting anything here but a fully loaded (or overloaded) aircraft operating at it's service ceiling doesn't have much wiggle room to recover from sudden abrupt maneuvers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_(aviation)

This type of thing can be miscontrued as an autopilot failure when in fact the autopilot is struggling to maintain it's altitude.

[L1011]

What happened to pilots being taught unusual attitude recovery by reference to the basic instruments.....needle/ball and airspeed?

Hell we had to be proficient with that method of recovery in the Cessna 140's to pass the CPL ride over fifty years ago.

By the way I am not suggesting that was the cause of this accident...only commenting on the fact that recovery from unusual attitudes using basic instruments is basic a flying training requirement.

We're talking about a non-professional pilot here. Granted, a non-professional pilot who decided to take off single crew in a single-engine aircraft into IMC with the responsibility of 4 other lives. But a non-professional pilot nonetheless.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

We're talking about a non-professional pilot here.

So to fly an airplane capable of high altitude IFR and equipped with all the equipment that is necessary to fly in that environment you must be a professional pilot?? WTF exactly is a professional pilot?

Granted, a non-professional pilot who decided to take off single crew in a single-engine aircraft into IMC with the responsibility of 4 other lives. But a non-professional pilot nonetheless.

So who trained him and who gave him his license and who passed him on his check rides?

Maybe I'm missing something here?

[The Hammer]

.

Is there any legal (not insurance) requirement for a private operator to complete recurrent training on this a/c??? No type rating is needed and IFR check ride could have legally been done on your C140.....

Anyone know what the usual insurance requiremnts are for this a/c with regards to training?

PS This a/c should have had a vacuum pump and a standby "jet pump" to provide adequate suction for gyro's

[small penguin]

I think the point L1011 was making was... Just because its legal to do something, doesnt mean you should do it.

Heck how many of you bashed me on the low level flying! And then this accident happened.

[Hedley]

PS This a/c should have had a vacuum pump and a standby "jet pump" to provide adequate suction for gyro's

When I used to fly IFR with a single-engine and
one vacuum pump (M20J) I had a second, electric
attitude indicator installed so that if I lost the vacuum
pump (they fail around every 500 hrs) it wasn't
that big a deal. Not sure why I am the only person
who has ever considered this scenario before. I
didn't think my life was worth less than a 2nd gyro.

But what would I know, compared to the genius mechanics
and wealthy CEO owner/operators around here? I only
have 30+ years of accident free aviation experience,
which I am told here is irrelevant.

Have at it, moderators! Start censoring this NOW.

[L1011]

We're talking about a non-professional pilot here.

So to fly an airplane capable of high altitude IFR and equipped with all the equipment that is necessary to fly in that environment you must be a professional pilot?? WTF exactly is a professional pilot?

Granted, a non-professional pilot who decided to take off single crew in a single-engine aircraft into IMC with the responsibility of 4 other lives. But a non-professional pilot nonetheless.

So who trained him and who gave him his license and who passed him on his check rides?

Maybe I'm missing something here?

A non-professional pilot is a pilot who does not fly for a career. It's a fairly common term, and certainly not worthy of the "WTF" bomb.

I think the point L1011 was making was... Just because its legal to do something, doesnt mean you should do it.

Bang on. For example, if it just so happened to be SKC P6SM throughout your entire IFR training and the first time you get a chance to use your brand new IFR by yourself and the weather is at minimums, it's legal, but you should instead ease yourself into it.

I'm also not saying this guy wasn't a good pilot. I have no idea of his skill level. But was this worth the risk?

When I used to fly IFR with a single-engine and
one vacuum pump (M20J) I had a second, electric
attitude indicator installed so that if I lost the vacuum
pump (they fail around every 500 hrs) it wasn't
that big a deal. Not sure why I am the only person
who has ever considered this scenario before. I
didn't think my life was worth less than a 2nd gyro.

Very well said, Hedley. You can never be too safe!

[xsbank]

Having just read this topic, I'm amazed how much utter gibberish has been printed here. The prize definitely goes to the guy who stated that "...it looked like he made an attempt to recover..." Congratulations, its only April, but we have our Avcanada Quote-of-The-Year.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A non-professional pilot is a pilot who does not fly for a career. It's a fairly common term, and certainly not worthy of the "WTF" bomb.

You don't seem to like a lot of my comments L1011, so let me explain what I was driving at....there really is not much difference between a truck driver and an airplane driver.

[MrWings]

Is there something else we could be discussing jezze !

I think discussing aviation incidents like this is a valuable exercise.

Above all, it is a learning experience. People are questioning all sorts of things including airmanship, pilot experience, aircraft characteristics, instrument failure and recovery procedures. While all speculation, it makes you think about what you would do in a similar circumstance to side-step catastrophe or how to avoid the situation all together.

Second, it is a mystery. Aircraft do not just fall out for the sky. Pilots, who do have some knowledge about the industry in which they work, will naturally become amateur sleuths. It is no different for any other industry, like the disabled fishing boat that just sank while being towed. Fisherman in that part of the world are weighing in on their opinion on that one.

What is being discussed here is among peers. Good questions are being raised and invalid reasoning is being pointed out. No one has the complete answer nor are they pretending to.

Avoiding the subject adds to the tragedy.

[small penguin]

Mr Wings, I completely agree!

Its said often that only by knowing the mistakes of others, can you help prevent doing them yourself.

[Ogee]

Yes, there is something weird about this wreckage, at least from what the pictures show. As your man above says, there doesn't seem to be any real forward impact damage. It looks like it impacted more or less in level attitude. All I can think of to explain that is that with the weight distribution it wasn't nose heavy in the fall.

As for the angle of attack thing, I don't think angle of attack much figures into this as it didn't have much for lifting surfaces left.

I'm not sure what is meant by saying it looks from the cockpit photo that the pilot was trying to salvage something. Other than the bending right of the throttle quadrant, which might indicate hand on the throttles at impact, or might not. I don't know what a guy would be thinking after going through the g's that would be involved in tearing the wings and tail off, which I assume is somewhere around 5 or 6 g's with the 50% add on to the certified figure.

[MyMeowCat]

This is a tragedy that happened to not only the same company but to the same family in just a few months.

I don't think TC figured out what happened to the guy's father yet. Both aircraft I believe were Piper Malibu's.

What I want to know is who maintains their aircraft??

[_dwj_]

This is a tragedy that happened to not only the same company but to the same family in just a few months.

I don't think TC figured out what happened to the guy's father yet. Both aircraft I believe were Piper Malibu's.

What I want to know is who maintains their aircraft??

No, the father was flying a 172. He took off from Golden on a VFR flight plan into low cloud, poor visibility and a mountain wave SIGMET was in effect. A rescue helicopter had to turn back because of the bad weather, and when they finally reached the site there was fog, rain and light snow. The crash occured in steep mountainous terrain far from any main roads (i.e nowhere to perform an emergency landing). All in all some very poor decision making, and an accident that was bound to happen sooner or later.

[small penguin]

I dont think it'd be a stall as when stalled, airspeed is generally low, G forces are pretty much 1, and from what I've seen, the nose is pointed straight down. Flat spin excepted I suppose.

Given the (lack of) damage to the prop, I'd think the engine was either idling (doubtful) or dead (is what I think).

[Ogee]

Um, the wreckage doesn't really have any wings to speak of, and it has no tail feathers that I can see. I don't think you can spin or stall an aircraft that doesn't have wings or an elevator, in the sense of having one wing with more lift and one with less lift.

[small penguin]

Actually one thing Im wondering is whether or not the aircraft's resting place was where it impacted the ground. Something tells me it slid a fair bit before coming to a halt.

[small penguin]

Whoops! My mistake, that was supposed to say "I dont think it'd be a SPIN..."

[xsbank]

If part of the junk was found 5 KM AWAY, that just might suggest that recovery from an unusual attitude would be a tad difficult, no? How much airplane do you have to have attached to your butt before waggling the controls will actually do something? Speculation is fine, I defend it as being a necessary part of aviation, but at least base your WAGs on some small facts....maybe one leeetle itsy bitsy one might help the speculation process.

I know, maybe the a/c was previously owned by a small charter outfit in northern Alberta. On empty legs, the pilots used to roll it! That's it! That's why it disintegrated in flight! Undiagnosed damage caused by bored, underpaid pilots abusing the aircraft!

Did I do good? Did I?

[AirdogAlpha]

This is a very sad story. But what can we learn as aviators?
We maybe checked out. Or current Instrument rated. But, how often do you practice partial panel? Could you handle the work load if you had a vac pump/gyro failure,? This reinforces the idea that we must be more than just current...we must be proficient. Partial Panel is not easy... and recognizing it before bit becomes a large problem is even harder. Add in bumps, thick IMC, and maybe some ice... heavy load early in flight... and we have less optimal conditions. I am heading out to my airfield in the morning... to practice.

[RatherBeFlying]

The Edmonton Sun photo shows a turn coordinator and an artificial horizon on the copilots side and quite a difference between the pilot's and copilot's horizons.

Likely there is also a turn coordinator on the pilot's side which would give us four instruments to keep wings level by.

If a single attitude instrument fails, there's three others to help you decide which one is out of step. Perhaps a pilot in the right seat would have made a difference -- and it's not that hard to train a non-pilot to keep wings level off the AH ahead of time.

[Hedley]

Seems that the aircraft has a history of coming apart in midair.

I guess you're not old enough to remember the infamous
FAA re-certification of the Malibu, which concluded that
doctors should remember to turn on pitot heat?

[Hedley]

If a single attitude instrument fails

The problem is often detecting that a gyro has
failed (often they fail quietly - no flag) and then
trying to figure out which gyros are still working,
before the slippery aircraft builds up too much
airspeed and comes to pieces.

One of the most important things you can do
when a gyro fails is to COVER IT UP. I can't
believe no one has mentioned it. When you
have a big AI in the center of the panel telling
you that you are in an unusual attitude, it's
hard to ignore that information that you're
so used to using, and pay attention instead
to a little turn & bank stuck in a corner.

A page from the CFS is good for this.

Also, I doubt anyone cares about the facts,
but even if EVERY FLIGHT INSTRUMENT
in your aircraft fails (complete vacuum,
electrical failure) you can still fly an aircraft
using the emulated panel of an economical
portable battery-powered Garmin 196.

You can even use it to overlay an instrument
approach, and fly it out of the clouds, even
using the GPS for altitude and airspeed, if you
wish. There's a Boeing off Peru that had it's
static ports taped over by maintenance personnel
that comes to mind ...

I have demonstrated using a G196 as a sole
source of flight information. But again,
I doubt anyone here really cares about
any facts. Also, I doubt anyone here thinks
their life is worth more than a G196,
and for most people here, I must agree.

Ok, censors, have at it! I'm sure I've
offended someone's delicate feelings
in this post, and we CAN'T have
that, can we? Not in the glorious socialist
republic of Canada, where everyone is
"special"!

[carholme]

Hedley;

I am sure if you check your facts about the airliner with tape over its ports, you will find that it was AeroPeru flight 603 which crashed into the sea killing all 70 aboard.

carholme

[MrWings]

Seems that Pilot Error might not be the cause afterall. Seems that the aircraft has a history of coming apart in midair.

History of coming apart AFTER exceeding VNE.