RCMP use taser on HANDCUFFED 135lb 15 year old

[unknowingly upsidedown]

I don't know, sounds like the kid needed some attitude adjustment, and to realize that there are real consequences for his actions, because we all know our courts aren't capable of teaching that lesson. (not saying its the cops responsibility though)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

"The conducted energy weapon was deployed

Maybe someone should use that on Tasha Adams and ask her if it feels any different than a Taser?

[2R]

A lot of idiots start fights and then complain when they find themselves in a fight that they started it is human nature .

You would have to be dumber than a sack of hammers to pick a fight with a bunch of cops .

Although i will wait for the video before comment further on this one

[1000 HP]

Yeah, sounds like they should have just shot him in the chest with the nine mm.

[altiplano]

/

[North Shore]

What cpl said!

The Taser has been marketed by Police Departments as a 'less lethal force alternative' ... ie.: Police are confronted with a knife-wielding maniac, so rather than blasting off two 9mm rounds into the centre of mass, and 'solving' the problem, you taser the guy instead, and everyone goes home alive. It has turned into a compliance device, akin to a cattleprod, used whenever the police get their feelings hurt... not the original intent, and given the potential for fatal results, not the wisest use of them, IMHO.

[Dash-Ate]

Gone are the days when you could get to know and trust your local patrol officer (who was a part of the community). It's gone all US style militarized. You don't even want to be pulled over for a speeding ticket these days it's that scarey. You could be dragged away after being tazed and charged with resisting arrest (after they attacked you).

[Dash-Ate]

In many countries stun batons are used as torture. It is normal for police to torture every subject .But that'll never happen here.

[Wilbur]

Taser is a manufacturers trade name, conductive energy device is what the thing actually is. Just like Glock is to pistol, Cessna is to airplanes.

Have you ever tried putting leg irons or zap straps on someone who is violent and kicking, especially in a confined space like the back of a car? How do get control of their legs without getting kicked yourself while using a level of force lower than a Taser? You can come in from the other side of the car and crawl over him, where he is likely to bite you. Or, you can approach from the side where he's kicking and take a couple shots in the face before you get control. Another option is OC, but that's a higher level of force than a taser and it would render the car unuseable for probably an hour or more. You could also drag him out and pin him to the ground, but that is also a higher level of force and much more likely to cause injury than a taser.

How would it have been done prior to the taser? He would have been dragged out of car and given a couple of shots to the body to stop his kicking long enough to get him into leg restraints. That is a higher level of force, more painful, and more likely to cause injury than is a jolt from the taser.

I also doubt anyone here realizes the Taser can be deployed in two ways. The most common is firing from a distance, usually 10-15 feet. Two darts stick into the subject 12 -18 inches apart and are connected by wires back to the device that then discharges 50k volts. The second method is by direct contact with the subject. The device has two probes a couple inches apart that will discharge the 50k volts on contact. The muscle groups between either the darts or the probes are put into spasm making gaining control of the person easier. The direct contact mode has much less effect because it impacts on only a very small area of muscle. Touch a battery powered electric fly swatter and you'll have an idea of what it's like.

Given this seems to have occured in the back of car it was almost certainly used in the direct contact mode. What was the consequence of this admittedly violent teen being tasered? Nothing but a few seconds discomfort. What would the experts here do that would get control of him with nobody being injured or hurt?

The comments often made here regarding police work, use of force, and how things ought to be done show the same level of ignorace as does the laymen passenger at the airport bitching you out because you can't fly in fog and snowstorms. What's the problem? Can't you fly on instruments? Or how about, "When are you going to quit flying those little twin engine airplanes and become a commercial pilot?" Exact same thing as happens here, people who don't understand what their talking about talking anyway.

[5x5]

Right on Wilbur. I guess lots of people here think the police should just say "Now, don't do that anymore." and all will be well. When dealing with a non-compliant person who is violent and resisting, some counter force has got to be used.

Gone are the days when you could get to know and trust your local patrol officer (who was a part of the community).

More unfortunately is that the days are gone where people in the local community respected and complied with the police when necessary. In the last couple of months I have become appalled at the oft stated feelings that running from the police in a vehicle is actually an acceptable option, that mistrust should be the state of mind you adopt prior to any encounter with the police, and that any use of force by police is automatically wrong and due to a police state mentality. Writing those kind of thoughts and promoting that attitude in this forum most likely reflects the same stance you adopt when dealing with your children, family and friends. What kind of community mentality are you encouraging?

You don't even want to be pulled over for a speeding ticket these days it's that scarey. You could be dragged away after being tazed and charged with resisting arrest (after they attacked you).

As I said above, fear-mongering rhetoric with no basis. I have yet to hear of any case where a cooperative, law-abiding citizen was tasered after being pulled over for a simple speeding ticket.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

As I said above, fear-mongering rhetoric with no basis. I have yet to hear of any case where a cooperative, law-abiding citizen was tasered after being pulled over for a simple speeding ticket

How about the senior citizen in Kelowna who was tasered in his car over a parking violation?

[BoostedNihilist]

Wilbur

How would it have been done prior to the taser? He would have been dragged out of car and given a couple of shots to the body to stop his kicking long enough to get him into leg restraints. That is a higher level of force, more painful, and more likely to cause injury than is a jolt from the taser.

Well, in a perfect world the kid would be taken home to dad, where a fate worse than a tasing would await, but alas, this does not happen in our society so the cops act as a drainage ditch, where all the troubled teenagers collect. This kid obviously lacked discipline, and where I do not often agree with wilbur, in this instance the use of the taser as a compliance device doesn't really bother me. This complaince device replaced the wooden spoon IMO. If you don't teach a kid compliance at age 15, what do you think the cops will walk into at age 25. People have to know that there are consequences for their actions, this is a principle lost on society these days. Now, every time this kid sees a cop he will think twice about the consequences of his actions, justified or not. A thrashing 15 year old filled with testosterone, adrenaline and god knows what kind of recreational drugs IS a viable threat to the officer. Personally, as a taxpayer, I wuold have him tased just to prevent ICBC from buying the RCMP another rear window (since they only pay $12 a month for insurance).

[Spokes]

Sounds to me like the little prick needed a good zapping.

[Cat Driver]

It is not the abuse of force by some members of the police that bothers me as much as the way it is investigated.....anyone who trusts an internal investigation of any organization is a fool.

[BoostedNihilist]

cpl_atc:

Just exactly what part of being handcuffed in the back seat of a police car is non-compliant?

We have discussed the use of the taser now in multiple threads. Generally, I agree with you. So many of the examples we see depicting the use of the taser show circumstances where another technique could have been used. Often, officers seem to goad people into a show of non-compliance just to open up justification for the use of the weapon. In this case though, it seems the kid was kinda a little prick.

An RCMP detachment in a suburb of Victoria is being accused of misusing a Taser stun gun on a 15-year-old boy who was being arrested for disobeying a court-ordered curfew for a mischief charge.

So he's a criminal.

Lets face it, today, kids are going into schools and blowing people away. Kids can be dangerous individuals. Maybe not so much so in Canada, but it definitely makes you wonder. 15 is old enough to do some significant damage.

linked article

The report said the boy was attempting to wriggle out of a police car when an officer fired a Taser shot into his leg.

Ok, if you are in the back of a police car, do not leave unless you are told to do so. Come on guys now seriously what would YOU do in his situation, sit tight and wait it out, or try to escape? This guy made the wrong choice. Clearly he should have remained in custody.

linked article

Shortly after, the boy began kicking the police-car door from the inside and the officer decided to use the Taser again, on the boy's chest, the report says.

Its just funny, at this point the guy is already in custody, in restraints has already been tased once for trying to escape!!!

What are your options?

1. Let him continue to vandalize public property, potentially causing injury to himself...

2. Tie him up in a way that prevents him from kicking in any way - lets think about this one for a minute, and remember he is thrashing and you can't injure him.... The forces involved here could easily cause a great deal of harm.

3. Taser him because he is being an effin idiot and teach him a lesson at the same time....

Now lets talk to good old mom.

linked article... mommy dearest

"He yells and he screams a lot. He's voracious when he's in an angry state. He's damaged property at home,"

WHAT A GEM. This kid was obviously a BNE waiting to happen. Apparently this kid does not know the difference between right and wrong. Well kid if you read this I will give you the best advice I ever got with regards to dealing with the law. You only need two words most of the time. Yes sir, or No sir. hint: displays of aggresion will most likely be met with aggression. Another thing you might want to think about is the crime/time ratio and your ability to do it.

I didn't know the exact definition for voracious... so I looked it up, one def amounts to being hungry, and the other seems to be eager, or almost keener with a compulsive quality... anyways.. wow. You would either have to be the dictionary mom-bitch from hell or have a focused knowlege of terms used to describe your kids crazy behaviour... or maybe he's just hungry?

linked article

West Shore RCMP said the teen is not being charged with resisting arrest or damage to the police vehicle.

See, no harm no foul. This kid got the deal of a lifetime and he doesn't even know it. He's got a killer babe-getting story, and no extra crap on his record! we should all be so lucky!

Just think all you Victoria-ers... this kid gets his N next year moo hoo hoo haa haa haa!

This is one big spank I'm glad justice gave out.

[invertedattitude]

I fully agree this kid likely deserved a good come-uppins, but the Taser was designed as a non-lethal alternative to the handgun, IE used only when a Handgun would be the last resort.

Any Police officer who uses a Taser on anyone that size and age is nothing but a whimp IMO. What the hell ever happened to the old chokehold and takedown.

[altiplano]

I'll take on all comers in the handcuffed, 135 lbs, 15 year old category.

Oh is he going to writhe and scratch me? Maybe give me a charlie horse? or a bruise? Come on....... Bring it on!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wilbur]

All you armchair experts who have NEVER seen or dealt with a violent person, how would you get control of this guy without causing him harm or injury? Sorry, but the back seat doors and windows of cop cars can be, and are kicked out from time to time. Would you let him kick and thrash until he escapes or injures himself? What do you know about this guy? Is he simply a teen lacking discipline, or something else? Is he bi-polar or suffering some other mental illness? High on something? How much strength can a psychotic 15 year old male generate? Do you know?; I do. I've seen people the size of this teen snap handcuffs like they were made of cheap plastic. I've seen it take a 5 man dog pile to get control. I've seen them break their own arms by the amount of force their muscles were generating in resistance. Should the cops be able to get control of him without a taser, sure, and they can. But it's going to be a lot riskier for everyone involved, force levels a lot higher than a taser will be required, and the kid is almost certain to be injured.

What is wrong in this case? A violent teenager, with a history of violence, is controlled suffering nothing more than a few seconds physical discomfort. The cops didn't hurt him, he didn't hurt himself, he didn't hurt the cops, and he was controlled before doing something serious enough to be charged. Good god, what better outcome could possibly be achieved?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How dangerous do you think that senior citizen was sitting in his car in Kelowna Wilbur?

[2R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNcMpOItuKo

never underestimate an old guy ,eh .

[Wilbur]

I don't know ., I wasn't there. But I would sure have my guard up after the guy stepped on the gas and took off. Why would he do that? This case was hashed over thoroughly before, just remember, it's alway nice to be able to view a situation after all the facts are known, but a cop on the street doesn't get that benefit. They have to make split second decisions with the benefit of nothing more than their training, experience, and the bit of information they have. Honestly ask yourself what you would think if you were in that cop's shoes. You approach a guy for a simple traffic violation and he hits the gas and takes off. Who do you think, in that cops experience, runs from the police? Old guys out for drives with their wives, or criminals with a reason to run from the law? Why would anyone right in the head, or honest, do that? They wouldn't, and didn't in this case. The guys wife stated in a TV news interview that the guy had problems with mental functioning that made him prone to impulisivity and irrational behaviour.

Police and others in law enforcement are covered by the same WCB regs as everyone else, and they have an obligation to protect themselves from harm, not take unreasonable risks, and to be supplied with and use all practicable means to keep themselves safe. They are not obligated to get kicked in the head, have a stapler thrown at them, etc to avoid subjecting a crook to a few seconds discomfort from a taser.

[Dust Devil]

It's very simple. Don't be a douchbag and you will never be tasered by the cops. Ever!

[CAP12000]

It would be a very exceptional case where use of a taser could be justified on a handcuffed suspect. If this article is accurate and these cops worked in my organization, they would be serving 30-60 days suspensions without pay if it's their first incident of excessive force. If they had a prior, they would be fired. In either case, the matter would be submitted to crown for consideration of criminal assault charges.

Wilbur, are you now saying that a 135lb 15 year old in the back of a police car is an exceptional case?

[Topspin]

My all time favorite is BC transit police tasering non violent people for not paying fares.
I believe the figure was 15 people in the last 18 months, of which only 3 tried to run away and the rest were just standing there.

[Wilbur]

I have no way of knowing if this case involving the 15 year old is exceptional or not. Maybe the cops actions were justified, and maybe they weren't. I just said what my organization would do if the level of force used was not justifiable in the circumstances.

As for tasering non-violent people, how do you define violent or non-violent. Those terms aren't normally used in law enforcement because they are too subjective and mislead people. The actions of suspects are normally described in terms of their level of resistance. Passive, active, assaultive, etc. If the police have the legal right to arrest you, they can use whatever level of force they reasonably need to use to overcome your resistence and effect the arrest. If you are placed under arrest and then pull away and attempt to flee, they should taser or pepper spray you before attempting some sort of take down on you. Just because you weren't "violent" doesn't mean they have to just let you run away, nor does it mean they should subject you and themselves to the increased risk of harm that comes from engaging in physcial control techniques. Your agreement, permission, or voluntary cooperation are appreciated, but not required when being arrested. However, no matter how minor your initial crime or violation, you always have the ability to escalate the situation into something far mor serious by running or resisting. That simple point seems to escape a lot of people these days, and they get a big surprise and their knickers in a knot when they get a face full of OC or a couple of taser darts stuck in their hide.

It's really quite simple to avoid being tasered by the transit police when you haven't paid your fare; take your ticket, go your merry way, and either pay it or fight it in court. Or, you can tell the cop to pound it, refuse to produce ID, try walking or running away, flop around on the ground with either 50K volts contorting your body or pepper sauce burning your eyes and nose, be handcuffed, arrested and charged for obstruction. It doesn't strike me as a particularily difficult decision to get right.