Would like a little info on a embraer sched out of yyz. with a possible start date in the fall/winter. How long on reserve, (best guess) quality of lifestyle, perdiem, how long for upgrade. General info on what to expect.
Much appreciated
YYZ embraer F/O
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
ask Tony....
If he's still wearing his rose colored glasses.
But realistically I would guess you'll be on reserve (available 17-18 days, off 12-13 with just 4 firm) 7-9 months at a minimum (from joining) , EMB F/O in YYZ.
The bottom 320 F/0 has been here since July 07 and was trained straight to it.
Things are slowing but one should be able to hold (on paper) 320 at the bottom about a year to 18 months in and get trained to it a year to 18 months later. For planning purposes I would not expect to be flying the 320 (therefore paid 320 wages) for about 2.5 to possibly 3.5 years.
That is however, number 310 of 310 total, 45 of 45 on reserve (bottom reserve is no fun at all) so going to the 320 is only desireable for those who can't live on the position group wages. Which is most of us.
Bottom EMJ left seat is looking to be much longer off than it has been in recent months. 3 to 3.5 to hold it on paper and an additional 12- 18 months to train to it is my guess??
Perhaps someone has a differing view on it but I do not feel these numbers are overly pessimistic.
Hope it helps.
If he's still wearing his rose colored glasses.
But realistically I would guess you'll be on reserve (available 17-18 days, off 12-13 with just 4 firm) 7-9 months at a minimum (from joining) , EMB F/O in YYZ.
The bottom 320 F/0 has been here since July 07 and was trained straight to it.
Things are slowing but one should be able to hold (on paper) 320 at the bottom about a year to 18 months in and get trained to it a year to 18 months later. For planning purposes I would not expect to be flying the 320 (therefore paid 320 wages) for about 2.5 to possibly 3.5 years.
That is however, number 310 of 310 total, 45 of 45 on reserve (bottom reserve is no fun at all) so going to the 320 is only desireable for those who can't live on the position group wages. Which is most of us.
Bottom EMJ left seat is looking to be much longer off than it has been in recent months. 3 to 3.5 to hold it on paper and an additional 12- 18 months to train to it is my guess??
Perhaps someone has a differing view on it but I do not feel these numbers are overly pessimistic.
Hope it helps.
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
I think it's Jaques Strappe that's on the Embryo, and Tony's on the 767...
Drinking outside the box.
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
I know but it's Tony with the rose colored glasses on!
"Ok. So tell me, where else are you going to make $114k a yr. in your first two years of employment flying a regional jet? It certainly helps to put things in perspective sometimes. AC gives you the oppurtunity to fly left seat as a newhire, making a six-digit income and people still find this unacceptable? "
Hmmm. Still the case?
"Ok. So tell me, where else are you going to make $114k a yr. in your first two years of employment flying a regional jet? It certainly helps to put things in perspective sometimes. AC gives you the oppurtunity to fly left seat as a newhire, making a six-digit income and people still find this unacceptable? "
Hmmm. Still the case?
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tonysoprano
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Ya, sorry Al. So let's see, that salary is for a captain entering his THIRD year of service on the Emb with AC. The bottom ten or so skippers have been with us less than a year. Next year they make $100k. And with the way things are now, bidding the left seat after one or two years in is doable if you don't mind some reserve. Gee, let me apologize for the gross miscalculation and for wearing my wife's sunglasses? I don't think so. Have a look at the paytables. Top scale is $135k. Should it be more? Of course. Those guys are still underpaid in my mind. But compare it to somewhere else and let me ask you a slightly different question: Where else are you given the opportunity to make $114k a yr flying a regional jet (less than 110 seats)?
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
This still implies that every single new-hire will have this opportunity which is obviously not the case. Having said that, first year narrowbody Capt opportunities could only happen at the crazy place called AC!tonysoprano wrote: And with the way things are now, bidding the left seat after one or two years in is doable if you don't mind some reserve.
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
"The bottom ten or so skippers have been with us less than a year" wrong but close.
Actually just over a year but close enough for me....
Thing is many of them are not even trained to it yet so more like almost 2 years by the time many are trained to it and therefore paid for it. But lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story, Tony.
The thing you seem oblivious to is the fact that these guys were lucky enough to take positions nobody else wanted (not enough pay uplift for many of the more senior 320 F/O's/ RP's to bother with a training course) and on a fleet growing at several A/C per month!
The fleet is no longer growing and therefore (I believe) the 1 year skipper scenarios is a thing of the past. As things slow I believe you'll see more 320 F/O's or senior RP's bid it and parachute in when they will not be stuck on reserve for an extended period and the bottom guys will remain there. Kinda like the RJ... oh how soon people forget.
LOL "And with the way things are now, bidding the left seat after one or two years in is doable if you don't mind some reserve" ALL those Captains you are refering to were awarded it in the 07/01 bid with still 20 or more A/C to come! Lets see come 08/01 shall we? BTW.... I'm bidding left seat 777, 330, 767, 320, EMJ doesn't however mean I'll be awarded it!
I'll be the first to admit it if I'm wrong and hopefully I am.
Actually just over a year but close enough for me....
Thing is many of them are not even trained to it yet so more like almost 2 years by the time many are trained to it and therefore paid for it. But lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story, Tony.
The thing you seem oblivious to is the fact that these guys were lucky enough to take positions nobody else wanted (not enough pay uplift for many of the more senior 320 F/O's/ RP's to bother with a training course) and on a fleet growing at several A/C per month!
The fleet is no longer growing and therefore (I believe) the 1 year skipper scenarios is a thing of the past. As things slow I believe you'll see more 320 F/O's or senior RP's bid it and parachute in when they will not be stuck on reserve for an extended period and the bottom guys will remain there. Kinda like the RJ... oh how soon people forget.
LOL "And with the way things are now, bidding the left seat after one or two years in is doable if you don't mind some reserve" ALL those Captains you are refering to were awarded it in the 07/01 bid with still 20 or more A/C to come! Lets see come 08/01 shall we? BTW.... I'm bidding left seat 777, 330, 767, 320, EMJ doesn't however mean I'll be awarded it!
I'll be the first to admit it if I'm wrong and hopefully I am.
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Jaques Strappe
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
"The bottom ten or so skippers have been with us less than a year" wrong but close.
I know of at least one that bid the left seat during his initial new hire course and got it. He completed his new hire course as a Captain. That being said, he was from Jazz so had some seniority behind him.
Whatever the industry is doing today, could be completely different tomorrow, so answering the question with any accuracy is pretty difficult to do. Bidding to the bottom of any airplane is not difficult because not too many people want to be there. As a result, there is usually a very large gap in seniority numbers between the top and bottom half of any given fleet in either seat.
Standby for new atis message
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tonysoprano
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
2 Years??They are due to be trained this fall. Would have been sooner if Ops had their shite together. Have a look at the training dates. Many of the pilots with less than 2 yrs have already been trained in the left seat. Others will have to wait till this fall. Their activation dates kick in before that and guess what? Show me the money!!Thing is many of them are not even trained to it yet so more like almost 2 years by the time many are trained to it and therefore paid for it. But lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story, Tony.
Al. There always will be seats nobody wants. The Emb in particular.The thing you seem oblivious to is the fact that these guys were lucky enough to take positions nobody else wanted (not enough pay uplift for many of the more senior 320 F/O's/ RP's to bother with a training course) and on a fleet growing at several A/C per month!
I kinda think the senior guys will want to go left seat 320 or right seat 787. I know that's my plan instead of the Emb. When things slow down, always bid the best position you can hold. The Emb left seat will always be available to the junior guys. Don't forget the retirements coming up 2009/10. Apparantly the most we've seen yet. They will also help in more ways than one.The fleet is no longer growing and therefore (I believe) the 1 year skipper scenarios is a thing of the past. As things slow I believe you'll see more 320 F/O's or senior RP's bid it and parachute in when they will not be stuck on reserve for an extended period and the bottom guys will remain there. Kinda like the RJ... oh how soon people forget.
Al. Were you that pessimistic when we hired you? I still urge you to find me a better gig for a young pilot anywhere in N.America. I can't predict the future, but I know up till now it's been pretty good for the newbies. If we can only get them a better starting salary, great. If you're not happy with it, well, you know what to do.....
I'll be the first to admit it if I'm wrong and hopefully I am.
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Jaques and Tony. a/ what is reserve for a new hire ( how many days a month are they waiting for the phone to ring) are there any actually flying days as well when your this new. How long (anticipated) until your senior not too be on reserve.
b/ how many flying days a month do most guys/gals work again being a new hire if your not totally stuck on reserve.
c/ last but not least what can you tell me about the pension, any info appreciated.
Thanks
b/ how many flying days a month do most guys/gals work again being a new hire if your not totally stuck on reserve.
c/ last but not least what can you tell me about the pension, any info appreciated.
Thanks
live the life you want to remember
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tonysoprano
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Cedar.
I just had a quick look at the bottom of the list Emb FO reserve blocks and they seem to be averaging 13 days off a month and 15-16 off for the more "senior" reserve. Reserve is a pretty fluid thing though with many different scenarios. For instance, you can "fly out" your month early and end up getting a nice little stretch of days off near the end. You will definately fly on reserve, not much sitting around waiting for the phone to wring. How long you stay on reserve is also a very fluid game. Right now with training/hiring slowing down for the summer, the last guys hired will have a very busy summer of flying. When hiring resumes, reserve can last several weeks to several months. If not on reserve, you can expect anywhere from 14-18 days off a month depending on where you sit in seniority. The more senior FOs seem to do all the day trips and be home every night. If you're keen, take the left seat upgrade as soon as you can. Don't like the airplane? Bid off to the 320 or RP as soon as possible- generally within 1 to 1.5 years in. Pension is good. Most of it is protected, some is not. Guys are retiring with a pension of $100k/yr+ depending on years of service.
I just had a quick look at the bottom of the list Emb FO reserve blocks and they seem to be averaging 13 days off a month and 15-16 off for the more "senior" reserve. Reserve is a pretty fluid thing though with many different scenarios. For instance, you can "fly out" your month early and end up getting a nice little stretch of days off near the end. You will definately fly on reserve, not much sitting around waiting for the phone to wring. How long you stay on reserve is also a very fluid game. Right now with training/hiring slowing down for the summer, the last guys hired will have a very busy summer of flying. When hiring resumes, reserve can last several weeks to several months. If not on reserve, you can expect anywhere from 14-18 days off a month depending on where you sit in seniority. The more senior FOs seem to do all the day trips and be home every night. If you're keen, take the left seat upgrade as soon as you can. Don't like the airplane? Bid off to the 320 or RP as soon as possible- generally within 1 to 1.5 years in. Pension is good. Most of it is protected, some is not. Guys are retiring with a pension of $100k/yr+ depending on years of service.
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tailgunner
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
As a junior EMJ Captain myself, perhaps I can shed a little light on the subject. I have found that reserve is what you make of it. I am in the bottom 20 percent of reserve , and my flying is not that different from being in the top 50 percent. I will not see any of the single day 2 - leg pairings, but being a commuter to YYZ that suits me just fine. I have been called in for 4 day pairings, and also last minute LGA pairings. For me, an airport is an airport, and a hotel bed a hotel bed. I might not see LAX layovers, but I sleep just as well in Winnipeg. I try and not get wrapped up too tightly on where I am or am not going, but rather I try and enjoy what I have been given. I still get my required days off a month, and with a little creativity and hard work, I have flown out my month days before the official end of the month. I never pass on flying, and it has worked out for me. I figure that if I am sitting at my crew shack in YYZ I may as well be flying and earning expenses, plus the beds in the hotels are much better than what I sleep on in YYZ, and I get to watch what I want to watch on the TV!
Furthermore the FO's I fly with have all been top notch people, excited about their new jobs, and are willing to learn everything they can.
Furthermore the FO's I fly with have all been top notch people, excited about their new jobs, and are willing to learn everything they can.
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Cedar.
Seems Tony thinks the senior reserve boys are required to be available less than the junior ones! His head is up his a$$.
Reserve is reserve period! Same for everyone period.
2 sets of 2 "G" days. 4 "O" days and 4 "T" (or 5 depending on a 30 or 31 day block month). So... like I said 12 or 13 days not required to be available and therefore "off".
Tony is probably looking at what someone did after the fact! Which means some "senior" reserve guys may have done anywhere from nothing to something more than nothing depending on the reserve coverage at the time. They were still required to answer their phones and be available while on reserve. Fine if on reserve at home, not so fine if in a flop house and away from home.
Bidding OFF the EMB as discussed and somewhat agreed to looks like a year to 18 months but again you may have it on paper but need a further year to 14/16 months to get trained off what you are on.
Very rarely will they let anyone "fly out".... especially us junior guys as it limits their reserve coverage. They prefer to keep as many people available to cover the unexpected. Long haul fleets are very different because a reserve guy is less useful with 10 to 20 hours available (return trip in many cases is 25 hours for an RP)
I wasn't trying to debate Tonys comments on the left seat on the EMB. Many have been very lucky to get it so soon. It will not continue at that rate that much I am very certain of!
Realistically what has happened in the past 2 to 3 years can not continue and our hiring is indicating as much. The 767 fleet is likely to loose it's -200's in the coming 12 months. The EMB fleet growth is over. Now it's up to retirements which at 112 in 2009 and 132 in 2010 ("most we've seen yet" eh Tony) is good but certainly not the same as fleet growth.
60 aircraft (minus the 15 RJ's to JAZZ) in just over 2 years (@ about 6 crews per aircraft = 540 pilots plus the 2 years worth of retirements approx. 250 for a total need of approx. 800 pilots)
When the hiring started once again in the summer of 2005 we have hired about 700 and are still showing a need for about 100 more. Funny how the numbers work out
Just trying to inform you a wee bit more than good ol Tony who's probably lucky enough to have many of those 700 to 800 below him
PS I'm not bitter or pissed as Tony would have you think. Just trying to be more realistic and provide perhaps some better info than he would have you believe.
A very long winded way of saying I agree with Rudder on this one! "This still implies that every single new-hire will have this opportunity which is obviously not the case."
Seems Tony thinks the senior reserve boys are required to be available less than the junior ones! His head is up his a$$.
Reserve is reserve period! Same for everyone period.
2 sets of 2 "G" days. 4 "O" days and 4 "T" (or 5 depending on a 30 or 31 day block month). So... like I said 12 or 13 days not required to be available and therefore "off".
Tony is probably looking at what someone did after the fact! Which means some "senior" reserve guys may have done anywhere from nothing to something more than nothing depending on the reserve coverage at the time. They were still required to answer their phones and be available while on reserve. Fine if on reserve at home, not so fine if in a flop house and away from home.
Bidding OFF the EMB as discussed and somewhat agreed to looks like a year to 18 months but again you may have it on paper but need a further year to 14/16 months to get trained off what you are on.
Very rarely will they let anyone "fly out".... especially us junior guys as it limits their reserve coverage. They prefer to keep as many people available to cover the unexpected. Long haul fleets are very different because a reserve guy is less useful with 10 to 20 hours available (return trip in many cases is 25 hours for an RP)
I wasn't trying to debate Tonys comments on the left seat on the EMB. Many have been very lucky to get it so soon. It will not continue at that rate that much I am very certain of!
Realistically what has happened in the past 2 to 3 years can not continue and our hiring is indicating as much. The 767 fleet is likely to loose it's -200's in the coming 12 months. The EMB fleet growth is over. Now it's up to retirements which at 112 in 2009 and 132 in 2010 ("most we've seen yet" eh Tony) is good but certainly not the same as fleet growth.
60 aircraft (minus the 15 RJ's to JAZZ) in just over 2 years (@ about 6 crews per aircraft = 540 pilots plus the 2 years worth of retirements approx. 250 for a total need of approx. 800 pilots)
When the hiring started once again in the summer of 2005 we have hired about 700 and are still showing a need for about 100 more. Funny how the numbers work out
Just trying to inform you a wee bit more than good ol Tony who's probably lucky enough to have many of those 700 to 800 below him
PS I'm not bitter or pissed as Tony would have you think. Just trying to be more realistic and provide perhaps some better info than he would have you believe.
A very long winded way of saying I agree with Rudder on this one! "This still implies that every single new-hire will have this opportunity which is obviously not the case."
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tonysoprano
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Al. One last attempt. Take my advice. Oppurtunities are there. Nevermind the every single newhire thing. Others here have tried to tell you it's what YOU make of it. Your pessimistic head is so far up you ass that you can't see the trees for the forest. You my friend, are in for a very rough ride here. Do your skippers a favour and keep it at home where somebody cares.
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Do my skippers a favor? Thought I'd be a Captain in 1 to 2 years?
Perhaps I'm already there (on paper) but just wanted a rise outta you....
Perhaps I'm already there (on paper) but just wanted a rise outta you....
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tonysoprano
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
thanks to all for their views,
live the life you want to remember
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groundtoflightdeck
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Do most new hires walk in ready to take the left seat? If I understand its a big risk while on probation.
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tonysoprano
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
While on probation, if you fail, you're done. I don't know what the failure rate is right now but I'm impressed with those newbies who have already made it to the left seat.
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Amateur Turbines
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Tony Said:
"I still urge you to find me a better gig for a young pilot anywhere in N.America. I can't predict the future, but I know up till now it's been pretty good for the newbies. If we can only get them a better starting salary, great. If you're not happy with it, well, you know what to do....."
My answer: WestJet!!!!
Sorry for the hijack
"I still urge you to find me a better gig for a young pilot anywhere in N.America. I can't predict the future, but I know up till now it's been pretty good for the newbies. If we can only get them a better starting salary, great. If you're not happy with it, well, you know what to do.....
"My answer: WestJet!!!!
Sorry for the hijack
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tonysoprano
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groundtoflightdeck
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Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Exactly, until you get an handle on the aircraft and the COM, I'd be leaning towards laying low, learning and trying not to embarass myself. Working my carrer to get to AC and then loosing it all trying to jump the gun would really suck- maybe thats conservative.tonysoprano wrote:While on probation, if you fail, you're done. I don't know what the failure rate is right now but I'm impressed with those newbies who have already made it to the left seat.
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Al707: Just updating my PBS avoid to fly with list... could I get your number?
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
yycflyguy wrote:Al707: Just updating my PBS avoid to fly with list... could I get your number?
Hahah
Re: YYZ embraer F/O
Tony are you doing the final checks on these newbie skippers? I would assume with the large number of high time pilots that have joined AC in the last 3 years, a command course for many was not an issue.tonysoprano wrote:I'm impressed with those newbies who have already made it to the left seat.
