MP calls for block of night flights to and from Dorval

[Widow]

Night flight buzz reaches Ottawa
ELIZABETH THOMPSON, The Gazette
Published: 5 hours ago

Liberal MP Marlene Jennings is calling on the federal government to block night flights to and from Dorval's Pierre Elliott Trudeau Airport and to consult residents of Lachine and Ville St. Pierre before going ahead with plans to test a new route for night flights.

Under the notice of a motion tabled in Parliament by Jennings yesterday, flights would only be allowed in the case of medical emergencies, delays beyond a carrier's control, adverse weather conditions or flights directly related to Canadian military operations.

"Every year, there are more and more flights going out at night," said Jennings, Liberal MP for the riding of Notre Dame de Grace-Lachine.

However, officials from the Aéroports de Montreal, which operates the airport, say Jennings's motion could hurt Montreal economically and put the airport at a competitive disadvantage with other Canadian airports.

"It would mean that from the point of view of competition, other airports like Ottawa would continue to have the right, Toronto would continue to have the right and for a reason that escapes us, we would no longer have the right," said Christiane Beaulieu, vice-president of public affairs for ADM.

The question of night flights at the busy airport has come to the fore in recent weeks when Lachine-area residents became concerned about the airports' plans to test a new departure route that would see planes fly over the Lachine train yards then turn south toward the Mercier Bridge.

Beaulieu said the airport is preparing to test the route this summer and will install microphones in key locations to determine what impact the new route is having on homes in the area.

Beaulieu said the airport already has operating restrictions overnight. For example, while planes weighing less than 45,000 kilograms can fly in and out of the airport 24 hours a day, jets weighing more than that generally can only take off between 7 a.m. and midnight and land between 7 a.m. and 1 a.m.

Other Canadian airports operate under similar rules, she said.

Jennings' motion, which would not be binding on the government, calls on the government to issue an order under the Aeronautics Act and through the Aéroports de Montréal to suspend all flights between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m., except for the four circumstances spelled out in the motion.

Jennings said her motion was prompted by the airport's plan to test the new route for night flights. The new route, she said, seems to have been triggered by complaints from residents living north of the airport and in Laval about noise from night flights.

"They had too many complaints in one area, so they just decided to shift the night flights over," Jennings explained.

Jennings said she would like to see a public consultation on the proposal to test the new route, with citizens allowed to consult the facts and studies.

"There have been serious studies done in the European union that show that people who live in the path of night flights suffer from a variety of problems, including hypertension."

Jennings said she has not gotten any reaction from the government to her motion and does not know yet whether the motion will be supported by other parties in the House.

Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon could not be reached for comment.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/n ... 9dadb6ae88

[Braun]

Hence why it was an awesome idea to build and fairly busy international airport on an island. Mirabel anyone?

[Hedley]

Hey! I have a great idea! Why don't we spend
BILLIONS of dollars of the federal taxpayer's money
on building a big, new airport outside of Montreal,
where the noise won't bother anyone? Everyone
will use the new airport because no one will mind
travelling the extra distance to it.

What a great, original idea!

[Four1oh]

Hey! I have a great idea! Why don't we spend
BILLIONS of dollars of the federal taxpayer's money
on building a big, new airport outside of Montreal,
where the noise won't bother anyone? Everyone
will use the new airport because no one will mind
travelling the extra distance to it.

What a great, original idea!

You mean like CYEG? Once people got used to the idea of driving further, it seems to have worked out for them.

[water wings]

i also find aircraft to not only be quieter than your average Harley (sorry Doc), city bus or suped up Mazda, but planes tend to be quieter than protesters' drumming and politicians' incessant whining and generally achieve a hellavu lot more.

this politician is an IDIOT. I flew over Mirabel a few months back and well... i flew over it... there you go.
cleared for landing.

[small penguin]

Fucking idiots complaining. Move the @#$! away from the airport you dumb cocks lol. It was there before you moved in. It'll be there long after you move out.

We have many idiots calling the club complaining about noise too. So night circuits arent allowed. *shrugs* if I can piss off some rich dick down there, Im happy.

Again, dont like the noise, move the @#$! away, or do us a favour and blow out your ear drums.

[Conquest Driver]

You mean like CYEG? Once people got used to the idea of driving further, it seems to have worked out for them.

Ahh yes the Edmonton/Red Deer International airport. Actually some people (like me) have "gotten used to it" because it was rammed down their throats. The entire idea that, by forcing people do drive to an inconvenient location you'll somehow improve transportation escapes me.

Let's see, Mirabel didn't work, Pickering didn't work. The only reason YEG appears to work is that the logical alternative was removed.

There are a surprising number of businesses which have located away from Edmonton because of the bad transportation links.

[Four1oh]

if you didn't 'know' that you were buying a house in close proximity to an airport... then sue your Realtor.

[valvelifter]

You know I would like to ask these same people how many times they have flown to Cuba or the Dominican, at night, making the same noise they are complaining about. I doubt these people would make the drive to Ottawa and depart from there, so as to not disturb their neighbors.

And no departures before 7AM?

Those 6:30AM departures towards the US has saved me on days when I have to arrive to my destination that same morning.

Hmmm, Plattsburgh is looking so much better now. People already save over half by flying out of there, now the time of day factor is another + to compensate for the extra hour drive. As usual, another great idea from our wonderful MPs.

[L1011]

I have pictures of Dorval {yes, thats its name, not bloody PET, part of our aviation history, the main base of the Overseas Ferry Unit} when it was surounded by open space and a few house built by TCA employees and othe airport workers, what do folks not understand that if you build of the end of a runway its pretty hard to move a 400,000kg hunk of metal over the roof without making a bit of noise? I willing to bet that this twit takes a cheapo late night charter to Cuba if it saves her a few bucks! Its worth reading the PNDB readings for ambient street level noise in Montreal and other large Canadian cities, its often a lot more then the aircraft noise that folks bitch about.

Very well said, Clunk!

Also, if you move into an area that had an airport established WELL before you moved in, and then complain, you are an idiot! (looking at you residents of Toronto Island and Markham!!!)

[Alex YCV]

up until recently, I lived about one mile out and half mile off of the approach for 24R. When aircraft are landing, for the most part, the noise isn't a real issue. Most of what is in the direct approach of 24R is industrial, with some medium apartment blocks as you get further out.

A while back, the new noise abatement program came in for night departures. Where possible (winds etc) night flights would leave on 06L. The Jaydee-6 (not sure the spelling) had aircraft going up and fairly rapidly turning left away from pretty much all the population, a route that took the flights over industrial land. Most of the time this works, but the occassional late night "oops" would have heavies turning just about right over my house at about 800 feet while in climb... needless to say, at 1 AM, has aircraft taking off of 06R, and turning south-east over the train yards and highway, away from almost all the nighttime sleepers. The only ones that will be affected might be some people between the 20 and rhe Mercier bridge, and even then they are use to traffic noise 24 hours per day. the new route will likely take care of almost all complaints. This politician just doesn't seem to have a real clue, and is reacting to comments by their constituents made WITHOUT EXPERIENCE.

There are no heavies scheduled for late departures, it sometimes happens during the winter that planes are delayed and leave late (after midnight) but that isn't very often.

The real issues exist when the wind doesn't permit this and the planes have to take off of 24R or 24L. In both cases, the city of Dorval (now Montreal) allowed way too much residential development, and so all flights take off right over housing, in an area that really should have been developed as commerical or industrial. Late at night, this can be a real issue. These people however have only themselves to blame, having built or purchased houses right in the route of an international airport.

Without experiencing what these changes will bring, the politician in question is talking out of (his or her) ass.

[Alex YCV]

let me add this: Mirabel is just too far away from Montreal to be useful, particularly because a significant amount of traffic is the back and forth travels between Montreal and Toronto. if you live downtown toronto and want to fly commercial to downtown montreal, you first must drive out to Mississauga, check in, security, gate, wait, fly, land, gate, baggage, and if you landed at Mirabel, you would be looking at adding 1 to 1.5 hours to the trip to Montreal. At a certain point, it would be faster to drive (and much faster to take the train).

Can you imagine Porter from Toronto Island to Mirabel... what would the point be?

[valvelifter]

Alex YCV, I do agree with you on the point where Mirabel is too far away; I always felt that any major city should have an airport close by, at least for domestic flights. But if you look at the situation in European cities, such as Stockholm or Amsterdam, the airports are actually quite far away from the city. It takes a 45 minute drive in the country to drive to Arlanda, and I also have the option of taking a train which gets me there faster than a taxi. There are also quite a few cities in the states with that type of model. In my opinion, I think Mirabel would have survived if they would have extended the 13 and the 50 from Ottawa, and added a rail service as they have been promising since the beginning of the jet age. Heck, they can't even decide on getting proper rail service to Dorval...

[Liquid Charlie]

Oslo has the right idea -- as do most major European airports and the same was going to be true for Mirabel -- nope Mirabel is going to be again -- only problem is they will have to modernize the terminal -- lmfaoooooo -- time to support your local organized crime again -- can u spell cement --

[Alex YCV]

Alex YCV, I do agree with you on the point where Mirabel is too far away; I always felt that any major city should have an airport close by, at least for domestic flights. But if you look at the situation in European cities, such as Stockholm or Amsterdam, the airports are actually quite far away from the city. It takes a 45 minute drive in the country to drive to Arlanda, and I also have the option of taking a train which gets me there faster than a taxi. There are also quite a few cities in the states with that type of model. In my opinion, I think Mirabel would have survived if they would have extended the 13 and the 50 from Ottawa, and added a rail service as they have been promising since the beginning of the jet age. Heck, they can't even decide on getting proper rail service to Dorval...

It really doesn't matter - unless they can figure out a way to run a TGV train from Mirabel to downtown Montreal, it is still way too far away. Even at the best of times, you are looking at adding 45 minutes to an hour to the commute, and more as the "couronne nord" of Montreal gets built up with more burbs, more cars, and as a result, more traffic.

A further joke would be a flight from Quebec City to Montreal (or Ottawa to Montreal for that matter): The car drive door to door from quebec is maybe 2 - 2.5 hours (depending on your foot, 250kms). Say 30 minutes to the airport in Quebec, 30 minutes to get on the plane (cutting it close) 1 hour flight, and then 1 hour drive to downtown Montreal in your rental car... 3 hours. Faster to drive.

If Mirabel is the answer, then I think someone needs to change the question.

[THEICEMAN]

I know for a fact that traffic is very limited at night! I have been living under the FAF of 24L for 13 years and it hasn't bothered the people of our area!

Why would an MP from N.D.G complain? They are totally out of the way from 24L & 24R. They rarely use runway 28.....

Aeroport de Montreal has issued a press statement last year that may need to go back to YMX by 2020. Since the traffic in Montreal has been growing fast, YUL may not be able to support the growth....
Personaly I don't understand why???? They can always close 28 & build another terminal. If Munich can survive with two runways, why can't YUL?

[valvelifter]

Aeroport de Montreal has issued a press statement last year that may need to go back to YMX by 2020.

That's odd; the PM said two years ago that the farmers would be able to buy their land back!

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=1470

[grimey]

Aeroport de Montreal has issued a press statement last year that may need to go back to YMX by 2020.

That's odd; the PM said two years ago that the farmers would be able to buy their land back!

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=1470

The federal government expropriated an area larger than Montreal to build Mirabel. There's just a little bit of extra space that the airport doesn't actually use.

[Siddley Hawker]

My daughter lives in Montreal West. It doesn't bother me whether they're using either 28 or 6L. The commuter trains are far noisier. Porter should look into running from the Island into St. Hubert. There's a friend of mine who flys for the RCMP, lives in NDG. Outside of rush hour, his commute from his house to the RCMP hangar in St. Hubert takes him 25 minutes via the Champlain bridge.

If ever there was a mistake in renaming an airport, Dorval is it. Mirabel should have been named Trudeau, not Dorval. Canadians were ferrying aircraft from Dorval to the European war zone while that sob was riding his motorcycle around Montreal wearing a Nazi helmet.

[Alex YCV]

I know for a fact that traffic is very limited at night! I have been living under the FAF of 24L for 13 years and it hasn't bothered the people of our area!

Why would an MP from N.D.G complain? They are totally out of the way from 24L & 24R. They rarely use runway 28.....

Aeroport de Montreal has issued a press statement last year that may need to go back to YMX by 2020. Since the traffic in Montreal has been growing fast, YUL may not be able to support the growth....
Personaly I don't understand why???? They can always close 28 & build another terminal. If Munich can survive with two runways, why can't YUL?

There is a very small but significant problem at Dorval, a real design error. The 24's aren't far enough apart to be run absolutely simultaneously. Basically, they would need to be more than 1 mile apart (5250 feet) and instead are just under 5000 feet center to center. So while they do use both runways, the traffic coming in and leaving has to be staggered and that limits the volume.

Remember too: Even with 2 runways running 18 hours a day, at 2 minutes per movement you can only run about 400k movements per year before you really start to run into issues. That is assuming total usage, which isn't likely, so something more like 300k is practical, unless there is a major change in layout to move the runways apart (very unlikely).

Before they go back to Mirabel, I think you will see some tightening on the size of aircraft flying in, trying to push the number of passengers up on the same number of flights.

[THEICEMAN]

If Munich can survive with two runways, why can't YUL?

Don't ever compare two airports based solely on runway length and configuration.

There are more factors than you can imagine (as demonstrated by the painful level of ignorance in your post) that determine airport capacity. Runways are only one of them.

Why does everybody have to attack here on avcanada?? Do you feel better about yourself cpl_atc???

Anyways.....Can Trudeau operate 300-400K traffic with only two runways? The old Bangkok airport ran 40mil pax a year with two runways that were side by side.
Now I am not comparing them directly, but I want to point out that they may have to close 28 in favour of building a new terminal.
Because there is no way that ADM will be moving ops back into YMX!

How will they accommodate future growth? Close 28 & build new terminal, move back to YMX, or lift the curfew & tell the MP to go screw off??

[RichAir]

Can you imagine Porter from Toronto Island to Mirabel... what would the point be?

Porter should look into running from the Island into St. Hubert.

They are already looking for it. There's an expansion plan for YHU, building a terminal, big parking lot, using the train track passing by the airport to shuttle to YUL, adding one more ILS, reinforcing the runway, adding few feet to it, enlarging the tarmac on the side of military ramp... Running porter from the Toronto Island to St. Hubert is what they want to do, it should be from a city center to another one, because what I found is that montreal city center airport is St.Hubert. I saw all the plans for that but they are waiting for the cash from governments and Longueuil city. Their ET of building is always pushed back, it should be for 2010 now I guess...

[SQ]

it's gonna be a hell of a job for ATC in CYHU to control both commercial flights and school flights.
CYHU frequencies are allready saturated by all the students flying overthere at a point they have to split ATC in 2 freq, 1 for the circuit, the other for inbound and outbound traffic.
how are they gonna do with scheduled commercial flight added to that mess ?
and what about the chineses student doing their 1st solo between 2 PD dash8 ? (and I'd like to advise you that the chinese contract with Cargair in YHU is full untill 2010)

[Alex YCV]

If Munich can survive with two runways, why can't YUL?

Don't ever compare two airports based solely on runway length and configuration.

There are more factors than you can imagine (as demonstrated by the painful level of ignorance in your post) that determine airport capacity. Runways are only one of them.

Why does everybody have to attack here on avcanada?? Do you feel better about yourself cpl_atc???

Anyways.....Can Trudeau operate 300-400K traffic with only two runways? The old Bangkok airport ran 40mil pax a year with two runways that were side by side.
Now I am not comparing them directly, but I want to point out that they may have to close 28 in favour of building a new terminal.
Because there is no way that ADM will be moving ops back into YMX!

How will they accommodate future growth? Close 28 & build new terminal, move back to YMX, or lift the curfew & tell the MP to go screw off??

I am up high tonight overlooking YUL as I type...

First off, you cannot compare the operations of airports in different countries because of different rules. You also cannot use pax numbers as an indication of anything. As an example, YUL has a large amount of AC/Jazz traffic, porter, regional jets, private planes, etc. A "movement" with only 20 pax takes up about the same amount of resources as a "movement" with 200 pax. Bangkok might have seen more larger planes, might have run 24 hours per day, etc. So it is hard to compare at that level. Restrictions in Dorval based on Canadian rules for seperation, parallel operations, etc make it pretty much impossible for Dorval to get much past 300k movements per year before things will start to get ugly.

How many runways does Toronto have? How many movements? How many people here are complaining about delays, long routes in, etc?

As for a new terminal, you need to keep up. Dorval opened the new International section a while back, and is now in process of removing some of the old warehouses / buildings at that end so that they can redo and expand the US arm of the airport. There is no need to be closing runways, and in fact that would make it harder to operate volume. The aiport often uses 28 to take planes off in a stop and hold short operation with 24R, effectively almost doubling the number of planes that can get off the field (or freeing up more time on 24L for arrivals).

There are limits to what can be done at Dorval because of the physical limitations not of the airport itself, but because too much stuff has been built around the airport and have made it pretty much impossible to add any more capacity.

[THEICEMAN]

As for a new terminal, you need to keep up. Dorval opened the new International section a while back, and is now in process of removing some of the old warehouses / buildings at that end so that they can redo and expand the US arm of the airport. There is no need to be closing runways, and in fact that would make it harder to operate volume. The aiport often uses 28 to take planes off in a stop and hold short operation with 24R, effectively almost doubling the number of planes that can get off the field (or freeing up more time on 24L for arrivals).

I guess your right about the airport ops. Runway 28 is real convinient.....but I have been keeping up.

The new expansion international/trans border section that they have built won't be enough. Even if they knock down those hangars and extend the concourses, it still won't be enough for the future.
ADM claims that Trudeau can only handle 20 million pax/year with all the expansions. So by 2020, things are going to get real ugly.

So the question now is, what to do???

it should be from a city center to another one, because what I found is that montreal city center airport is St.Hubert.

Nononoonoooo........

First of all, Trudeau is right in the middle of the city. St-hubert is out next to the farm lands in south shore.
As the crow flies, St-hubert is closer to downtown, but Trudeau is closer by driving time. To get from Dowtown to St-hubert, you either have to cross the city to get to the Jacques Cartier Bridge or go over the champlain bridge with all that heavy traffic.

Trudeau is only 15 minutes away from downtown by car! How Trudeau is not convinient????
It's probably a cheaper cab ride also from Trudeau!