Round Engine Rumors

[Blue Side Down]

So six months ago, after reading things here and elsewhere about 'coaxing that round engine to life' and 'there's nothing like convincing that radial to start after...', I was convinced that it took some divine rite to get a R- going. Well recently I was lucky enough to check-out behind a 1340, and I don't know whether to be surprised or disappointed- that thing is dead nuts easy to start. Forget something like the mags, and sure, it'll give a little trouble; but pull 9 blades through, set your levers right, give'r x shots and you're off.

So where did this thought that radials are tricky to start begin? In what situations are the R- series a real bear to get rumbling?

[Liquid Charlie]

1340 is an easy starting engine for sure -- as is the 1830 -- now the 985 is a little more tricky as is the 2800 but it's all about the way you prime the engine. Most 2800 have throat priming which lends to "wet" starts and exhaust fires -- the 985 for some reason will also have exhaust fires -- usually not an issue as long as you keep the engine turning but in the case of a beaver with a leaky fuel tank the exhaust fire will catch the belly of the airplane on fire -- never drop a 45 gal barrel on the floor of a beaver because eventually the fuel tank will start to leak.

Most starting issues with radial engines are with cold starts -- let it "tick" over slowly - never feed too much throttle as to get a backfire -- this will come back to haunt you later with loose induction tubes -- treat it like your best friend and the round engine will treat you just as well -- abuse it and it will bite you in the ass.

[Meatservo]

I suppose it "started" the first time someone had trouble starting one. He probably wasn't as clever as you, though.

The secret's out, everyone!! This guy knows how to start a wasp!

Just pulling your leg, mon.. Seriously, the installation, as in which type of plane it's in, has a lot to do with how the engine behaves. I'm guessing you flew a T-6, considering you're in London. I have no experience with this type of plane, so I couldn't tell you what the differences might be between this and, say, an Otter. I used to fly a beaver and when I first started flying it, if it was too cold or too hot, or rainy, or if I was grumpy, it would bark like a dog passing a peach pit, backfiring and embarassing me on half the starts. Then when I got used to the engine, it would start every time. We had a twin beech on wheels too, and the same thing, the pilot who was flying that would wake up the airport owls with a series of explosions every morning, and then after a while he smoothed out and had no trouble. I think most trouble with the R-985 comes from over-or-under priming. Some guys "pump" the throttle, some guys say NEVER pump the throttle...

I would talk to someone who flies one of those big "corncobs" and see what they say... watching those things come to life a cylinder at a time, looks like some kind of art form to get one of them started.

Also, in the "old days" there weren't the cool electric starters we have now, there were inertial starters you had to spin up by hand, then electric ones that would spin up with a motor and then pop a clutch to rotate the engine, there were cartridge starters that turned the engine over with gases from a shotgun-like cartridge that you "fired" from the cockpit, there were "boost coil" switches that I think were like the impulse coupling in a modern mag that the pilot had to use during start to make the spark hotter, (I think), all this shit made starting the engine like playing a piano. The beaver I flew had a little hole in the cowl where the handle for the inertia starter used to go, and it had plates over a bunch of holes in the cockpit with labels you could still read for things like "starter clutch" and "boost coil". I asked the chief pilot how you would have started the plane with all those controls in it and he said "never mind. You have a ways to go learning how to start it the way it is now." He was a grumpy old bastard. It also used to have a "bomb master" switch that didn't do anything (unfortunately)

[CLguy]

Starting a 985, 1340 and even an 1830 is about as hard as starting a PT-6. Although hot starting a 2800 will seperate the men from the boys pretty quick.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If the batteries are dead all you need is some rope and a skidoo and one
Eskimo to start a DC3.

But first make sure you have completed your written walk around check list.

[Ballsssssss]

wobble - wobble - wobble, prime - prime, wobble, prime, STARTER, pump throttle, mags on --- watch that MP, "BANG, fart, pop, BANG!"...oops, carb heat is on. "Pop, pop, BANG!"... DRAT, it's got one of those blasted auto-mixture carbs and I am in auto-lean.....Brup, Brup, Brup..BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...ahhhhh heaven.

[Blue Side Down]

Good call meatservo- the particular 1340 I was behind does start via an inertial starter (electric based), booster coil, and foot pedal starter, but I'm more in agreement that the secret is priming, and patience. The procedure for starting, as far as I've been shown, is set your throttle and don't touch it again until it's going- seems to work pretty well.

Thanks all for the info-

[Mr. North]

I believe if your beaver has a "bomb master" switch it is a military surplus a/c. An old guy told me the switch was used for arming the release of external pods/fuel tanks on the wings. This was over a few beers, so the accuracy of that explanation is questionable. Anyone else know what it's for?

[Liquid Charlie]

no skido or rope needed for an 1830 -- an FBI helps but 2 guys (short guy underneath ) -- grab prop and run with it -- works even with no electrics -- get a cup of fuel and pour it down the carb -- I did it right below the tower at T Bay -- I don't think anyone realized what was going on --

Norseman -- primed cold engine -- pumped throttle for warm starts -- beaver -- never pumped throttle -- always primed -- B-18 -- primers -- DC-3 -- prime for cold starts -- mixture start for warm engine -- started DC-3 and CV-44 in idle cut off --

Damn -- wasn't that another life time --

[Chuck Ellsworth]

no skido or rope needed for an 1830 -- an FBI helps but 2 guys (short guy underneath ) -- grab prop and run with it -- works even with no electrics -- get a cup of fuel and pour it down the carb -- I did it right below the tower at T Bay -- I don't think anyone realized what was going on -

True you don't need a Skidoo Liquid Charlie, but I like using a mechanical starter because I just do.....we didn't have any FBI's up there ...to far north...

Someday I will tell you how I started a B18 on floats with a rope one time all by myself when I was flying for George *********.....

[buster79]

come on ., don't leave us hanging like that!

[iflyforpie]

Manifesto of the Communist Party.

[Siddley Hawker]

come on ., don't leave us hanging like that!

Did his last name start with T?

. I heard that JCB once started the right engine on the Canso using a rope and the left starter, rather than spend the night on Bullfrog Lake.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Did his last name start with T?

Yup, the software did not allow " T e r r i a u l t " to work.....George was a great employer.

. I heard that JCB once started the right engine on the Canso using a rope and the left starter, rather than spend the night on Bullfrog Lake.

Yeh, Poor old Jim had to fire me a couple of times for actions unbecoming an officer and a gentleman.....once for poaching one of the Nuns in Fort George ( she confessed. )

Ahhh those were the days......

[Liquid Charlie]

A very close friend of mine who was a little vertically challenged always carrier a cut off mitt with a bungee cord attached -- damned if it didn't work -- haha

I'm all ears . --

[Liquid Charlie]

I witnessed a guy stuck on the right hand float of a beech 18 with one engine running and going around in circles on Sandy Lake -- had to dispatch a HB freighter to retrieve hime -- -- I believe he hand spanked the right engine at the dock -- Jumped on the float to realize there were no ladders. One of life's truly funny moments --

[Chuck Ellsworth]

O.K...George had a fish camp....sort of a camp...on a small river about 75 miles north of Fort George on a small lake....

...anyhow one day I was checking on the camp and the fuc.in starter on the right engine quit....so I made sure the float heels were firmly on the sand and wrapped a rope around the right engine prop dome went under the nose and then around the left engine dome....cranked the left engine with the mags off and got the right engine started....retreived my rope started the left engine and slid off the sand ...flew to Fort George to spend some quality time with the Nun....everyone needs religion in their life and that was as close as I got.

[just curious]

So "Schwartz" any huge desire to give up '27's for Norseman's again?

Just curious,
Bob Heath,
Al McNeil's Old buddy from YRL

[Liquid Charlie]

Well -- don't know -- understand the snake pit closed down -- just might have to do a road trip to the "gulch" just to listen to the old hoardyne --

[black hole]

Lucky I got my long boots on

BH

[Rudder Bug]

So where did this thought that radials are tricky to start begin? In what situations are the R- series a real bear to get rumbling?

Who said that????? A round engine is the easiest one to start in any circumstances!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Rudder Bug....

...for Christ sake please use some common sense.

If pilots admitted that these things are easy to start, fly and land what would they have to justify being pilots?

It sure ain't life style, money, security or anything else I can think of so all that is left is the self delusion that the job requires superman to get e'r done.

[Rowdy]

I seemed to be always able to get the 985 to fire easily on the first attempt.. but then again.. I have superhuman powers

[Rudder Bug]

Yeah true ., I almost forgot I was a divinity cause I'm driving a Cessna single right now !

[sky's the limit]

Pffffttt


I dare you to try and start a 1979 Mercury Zepher with an owner installed manual choke - during carb icing conditions.....

Now that my friends, was a challenge....!


stl