Central Mountain Air

[Wacko]

I think they should start limiting the number of CPLs given out per year. Just enough to keep up with demand.. but not so many that it continues to flood the market and drop wages and cause bs like years on the ramp...

That would be a sweet idea! At this point they would have to stop giving out CPL's for a decade though.

[Rowdy]

and how much money do you make, Mr. Rowdy?

Depends on what I'm doing.

[just curious]

Assuming he works 180 days a year, Rowdy will make 28000 plus per diems.

Sadly, it'll be on a king air.

When he upgrades, it'll be 60-70 K same terms.

[Unusual Attitude]

I heard CMA is moving salaries up - not to industry standard or where it should be, but better than what I have seen posted on these forums in the past.

True, but not by much. FOs start at 25k, 26.5k, then 28k for years 1,2,3 respectively. Capts get an additional $3600 per year for LID (plus $75 a day while LIDing).

You'll make more then the guys at CMA or carson and you'll be getting PIC time. Which counts 1 for 1.. not like the half time credits for the A licence that sittin right seat gets ya.

But then what? Great if you want to fly floats all your life. I was a 4000 hour float pilot with no IFR. I went to CMA, upgraded after eight months, and now I'm off to the majors after 2.5 years at CMA. Sure I had to make some sacrifices but I went to what I thought was the safest, most similar-to-an-airline operation. And I was right. Interestingly enough, had I gone through the low-time program at CMA, I would likely have been at an airline sooner, albiet much poorer. But I wouldn't trade my float flying days for anything -- it's just the route I took.

And like many others, I worked the ramp for two years before getting my first flying job. That's the way it worked then. Perhaps times have changed in the last 10 years, but that was what you had to do to get a flying job -- prove your work ethic and, like SNAG says, learn what really happens at an airline.

[Alex YCV]

Did you prove your work ethic by studying and passing your PPL and the CPL and getting your night rating and flying 250 or so hours already?

So how many years to you toss bags (for a paycheck and a location that pretty much precludes you renting from a local flying club for practice) before your newly minted flying skills have been dulled enough before you are suddenly qualified with 250hours + bag hours?

Is there some sort of TT + BT that could be worked out?

[Unusual Attitude]

So how many years to you toss bags (for a paycheck and a location that pretty much precludes you renting from a local flying club for practice) before your newly minted flying skills have been dulled enough before you are suddenly qualified with 250hours + bag hours?

For me I worked the ramp while I was completing my CPL. 17 days from when I completed my last flight towards my CPL until I started training at my first commercial job. My newly minted flying skills were still sharp (as sharp as they could be for someone with 200 hours at least). I realize that may not be realistic in more remote locations but it worked for me.

[Alex YCV]

So how many years to you toss bags (for a paycheck and a location that pretty much precludes you renting from a local flying club for practice) before your newly minted flying skills have been dulled enough before you are suddenly qualified with 250hours + bag hours?

For me I worked the ramp while I was completing my CPL. 17 days from when I completed my last flight towards my CPL until I started training at my first commercial job. My newly minted flying skills were still sharp (as sharp as they could be for someone with 200 hours at least). I realize that may not be realistic in more remote locations but it worked for me.

So where did you start out with 200 hours and into a seat?

[buster79]

rowdy. are you not one of these "so called guys" that is "flooding" the market? you are a low time, low wage, work for the love of flight "guy" arn't you?

[SQ]

problem is not what wage for what seat neither what time vs what experience
just think about the compromise you're abble to make in accordance with your convictions and personal values to reach your goal

[buster79]

sounds alot like DR PHIL ther sq!

[Wacko]

with that logic we'll start seeing guys fly for free in order to get on a jet faster

[SQ]

sounds alot like DR PHIL ther sq!

who is DR PHIL ? a shrink ?

off course Wacko, each one his own and you gonna be amazed about what people are able to do in order to get what they want.....
but in that logic I was not thinking about flying for free, offff course

[. .]

Rowdy: How much time do you have in a big king air? Have you actually flown a "big king air" maybe a -300 or 350? If an airline job is what you want Air Georgian or CMA are the two best spots in Canada to be to achieve your goal. How many guys from Borek in the last 2.5 years have gotten AC interviews? I'd say over 90% of captains at Georgian have gotten them, I would imagine CMA is very similar. How many guys from Borek have gone to WestJet/Skyservice/Sunwing/Air Transat in the last 2 years? Georgian and CMA are losing guys every month to those places. So while you may discount the 1900 as a big king air, the flying it does for Air Canada as a Tier III is a lot more like small airline. All the guys that are doing the hiring at the airlines seem to realize this. Ever been in a CAT D sim? The big king air will get ya in one, and you'll learn more in 20hrs then you did in your last 2000. Maybe you're not interested in flying for an airline, which isn't for everyone. However, for you to come in here and take a dump on one of the best routes to flying for an airline shows how little you truly know about getting there.

[rightseatwonder]

I think a problem might be the fact that many wannabe pilots head off to flight school or the flight training company of their choice thinking they should bang off the time asap and then go get one of "them pilot shortage jobs!" that they are led to believe are out there. Then the get a shot of reality.

I never understood why you can't work while you train. Work the ramp/dock, while you are learning to fly. You are getting to put in time in an entry level position in the companies organizational structure (like nearly every profession out there) , establishing a reputation for your work ethic, loyalty etc, and making some money towards your flying lessons in the first place. Your newly acquired skills aren't fading while you toil away in the snow or rain humping bags and wiping oil off beaver bellies and After you get the 250hrs and the shiny license, you are promotable to a flying position, or you are not.

the company I did this at while i was in flight college would have an annual sit down evaluation, to tell you where you stood. Yes you have done a good job and you are in line for a flying position and you are # whatever on the list.... or for these reasons (lateness etc) you will not be considered for a flying position this year what...... would you like to do? continue working and be evaluated next year or leave and try somewhere else.

with the supply of pilots out there these days, why not establish yourself in the industry (albeit at the bottom rung of the ladder), earlier instead of later?

thats what i found to be the most effective way for people to get in when they wanted to... at CMA specifically, when I was there, the guys/girls who were not slowly getting bitter and jaded working the ramp were doing it while training.... by the time their number gets called, they are ready to go. no waiting, etc.

BTW I made more money on the dock the last year i was a dockie than the first year i was flying! And thats a whole other story!

I obviously don't think there is an operational requirement to work a ramp before you can fly the line, but in the current supply and demand, it would appear to still be an industry requirement.,

I don't see a problem with it at all.

[SQ]

I never understood why you can't work while you train. Work the ramp/dock, while you are learning to fly. You are getting to put in time in an entry level position in the companies organizational structure (like nearly every profession out there) , establishing a reputation for your work ethic, loyalty etc, and making some money towards your flying lessons in the first place. Your newly acquired skills aren't fading while you toil away in the snow or rain humping bags and wiping oil off beaver bellies and After you get the 250hrs and the shiny license, you are promotable to a flying position, or you are not.

very good coment
I would just add that working during training, in any position (dxp, ramp, fueling, etc) gives an excellent insight about the type of operations your working in, pilot's life pros and cons, seniority system, pay vs duty vs hrs of flight, morale, and above all, a more than realistic vision of the job : you'll know what to expect and thus will avoid some bitterness and desillusions.
you'll stop chasing a dream, and will choose a job.

[flying4dollars]

Give me a break. Best bet? Go get some PIC time.. spend a couple weeks on the dock and if you're good shit they'll check you out on the 180 or 185 and you'll be the beaver and otter pilots little bitch.. but hey! You'll make more then the guys at CMA or carson and you'll be getting PIC time. Which counts 1 for 1.. not like the half time credits for the A licence that sittin right seat gets ya.

Not true. Right seat time CAN be counted 1 for 1 towards your A's if your company ops manual says their planes are to be flown 2 crew only, or if you fly a 2 crew required aircraft.

[short bus]

wrong. any co-pilot time regardless of aircraft type only counts as half toward your A license. go talk to transport, they'll set you straight.

[Rowdy]

Endless.. I was not dismissing that fact. I'm just saying it's another larger beech product. It does not take any wildly impressive or amazing piloting skills to operate and there are plenty of them out there doing a great job all over the world. My intention was not to take a dump on it or those flying it at all. I just don't see it as being the be all and end all. There are people at all the airlines mentioned from every 704 operation in canada in equal amounts now. For sure it's an easier transition to the type of line flying done when you start at any of the tier 3 operators, but if you've got some decent experience at any of the 704 ops across canada you should still be just fine and dandy! I've watched borek lose a flock of captains (and a couple FO's) to all the majors in the past couple of months too, so I think thats a moot point too.


I guess I struck a chord with ya eh? Didn't mean to come off that way Buds! Hope you're enjoyin that seat.

[Rowdy]

Assuming he works 180 days a year, Rowdy will make 28000 plus per diems.

Sadly, it'll be on a king air.

When he upgrades, it'll be 60-70 K same terms.

I'll easily go over the 180 if this keeps up ! And you're right.. it is sadly on the beechs. Be on the Otter next year supposedly. Yeehaw!

[hoghead]

Everyone here is missing the whole F!@#$%G point. While your so busy trying to get to the next level, arguing about aircraft size, what kind of time is better etc etc etc. Your pissing away what will be your best flying years of your career, if you in fact enjoy "flying".

It will happen soon enough, next thing you know you will be in the left seat of something which you may consider your dream aircraft/dream job missing the good old days. I sure as hell do but I also very much appreciate what I have and how long the road was.

The problem in Canada is CARs. 1200hrs/year? Its 900-1000hrs/year everywhere else. TC should be ashamed.

So enjoy the ride, have a life outside of flying and be safe.

[parallel60]

The previous post was written by someone who has obviously been in the industry for a while...newcomers take note and for everyone constantly concerned with "the next step" read the above.

Be careful that you don't condition yourself into the "next-step" mentality because before you know it the only thing you will know how to do is look for the "next-step" while your current job passes by.

[SQ]

Be careful that you don't condition yourself into the "next-step" mentality because before you know it the only thing you will know how to do is look for the "next-step" while your current job passes by

wow

kant ?...

[flying4dollars]

wrong. any co-pilot time regardless of aircraft type only counts as half toward your A license. go talk to transport, they'll set you straight.

Wrong..

Again, if your company ops says your planes are run 2 crew and a letter from your Ops Manager accompanies your application for an A license stating that all co-pilot time flown was a company and customer requirement , then it will count 1 for 1.

All of our captains who have applied for A's have gone through the same procedure at our company (and I'm sure many others) and have gotten their A's as their co-pilot time has been counted 1 for 1.

[short bus]

421.10 Crediting of Flight Time Acquired by a Co-pilot

The holder of a pilot licence may be credited not more than 50% of co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for the issuance of a higher class of pilot licence.
(amended 1998/12/01

[flying4dollars]

421.10 Crediting of Flight Time Acquired by a Co-pilot

The holder of a pilot licence may be credited not more than 50% of co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for the issuance of a higher class of pilot licence.
(amended 1998/12/01

Yes i know, but read my above post..

or call TC and they'll tell you the same thing.