Aviation career - too old, too debt-ridden? (WARNING,words!)

[alctel]

Hi guys,

Over the last few weeks I have been thinking about how to proceed, so I thought I would see if I could get any advice on here. This includes a fair bit of 'life story' I'm afraid, so here is fair warning if you can't be bothered to read it all!

I grew up in the UK, and I have always liked flying. I used to read a lot about the old WWII planes but it never occured to me I could have a career in aviation. After I finished my degree in the UK, I thought about applying to join the RAF, but decided that the lifestyle wasn't really for me.

While trying to decide what to do with my life I went travelling, accidently ended up in canada and ended up loving it - and at one point, I was sitting in Stanley park when a float plane roared low overhead, and I decided, THAT was what I wanted to do! I went up to Watson Lake and watched the traffic round there. When I got home, I made plans on how to move to Canada. (I'm 21 at this point).

2 years later, I get a 1 year visa. It wasn't for another 2 years after that that everything got sorted out, immigration-wise and job wise.

So now, I'm in my current situation. I'm 25, and halfway through a PPL (30 hours). I am now a landed immigrant which means I qualify for student loans - however I still have $30,000 of loans from the UK which i'm paying off(immigration lawyer fees, student fees etc). I have an IT job in Vancouver that pays ok (55k a year) which means that I can work full time and fly weekends without racking up any more debt - however at this rate it will take another 2 years until I get my CPL + ratings and can go up North job hunting.

From what I have read - most ramp operators at these places are all 18 - 19, and being (at that stage) almost 27 would put me at quite a large disadvantage vs someone who is a lot younger. By the time I work my way up from the ramp I will be almost 30, and only just getting my first piloting job - which I can see being a major disadvantage to employers. I do want to fly for airlines at some point, but not for another 10 years at least. I love the North and the Yukon (except the %$%ing flys), and I really want to fly floats, at least till my mid 30's. I am single (not good at settling) and have no problems with lower wages, as long as it lets me eat, have a roof and pay off any debts I might have left.

The last few weeks I've considered every possibilty, from getting out a huge loan and flying full time to get my CPL asap, to continue flying just at weekends, to junking the whole idea, getting my PPL for fun and concentrating on my IT career (which I hate, but I'm good at).

I guess what I'm asking is, am I starting too late in my life to have a viable career in aviation? And is 30k in debt BEFORE any serious training takes place just too much to overcome?

HELP!

[twotterflogger]

If that's your dream, then do it. No regrets is the way to live, and never allow anyone to tell you otherwise.
Best of luck,
Twotterflogger

[just curious]

Can you see yourself sitting in your present job 35 years from now?

Is your dream any less strong than when you first looked up?

If it's no to either one, press on.

[sez]

Haha I submit the same post with Jpar's 84.....It'll work for u also...

I guess I'm in the similar situation like you. I hold a Bachelor's Degree in Finance and working for the last 4 years in Oil Industry in a very competitive multinational company. Because I could not be able to save enough money I've chosen a subsidized College for my commercial training. Well I'm happy with my choice, considering I'm new to Canada, I have a chance to build network for the aviation industry (well not enrolled yet, I hope in sept...). But I gues as you're Canadian you'll not have the same difficulties like me. Whether you choose College or Flight School way, I'm sure that it will work out similar outcome for your taining. By the way after my taining ends in 2 years, and work in Av Industry for some years, I am not quite sure that if I'll be eligible in Oil Industry again. (Actually I'm 31). So follow your dream If it's your dream indeed.

Or...If I keep working in Oil Industry , I'm sure I'm gonna be fired as I'm thinking of nothing but flying...

[alctel]

Thanks for the encouraging words - so being 27 when I start looking for ramp jobs won't be too much of a disadvantage compared to all the young'uns? I guess I can but try!

[iflyforpie]

I say go with your dreams. There's no way I could do a job I hate for the rest of my working life.

Since you already have quite a bit of debt I would recommend against getting further into debt for training. You will be done you training quicker with a loan, but you will not be able to service your combined debts easily on a entry level pilot wage or dock wage and have to stay in IT, loosing your time advantage (been there, done that). Better to save up and poke away at your hours and debt so you can go whole hog in two years IMHO. Being single has it's advantages; it's pretty hard with wife, kids, and mortgage.

As far as age goes, maturity is an advantage in this industry. Not too many people are going to hand over an aircraft worth $100,000 or more to a 19 year old, no matter how many hours they have. And not everyone got their parents to pay for their training so they could be on the line at 19, there's quite a few 'older' new pilots out there.

I am 29 and just getting back into commercial flying after a two year hiatus to pay down debt and find a decent paying flying job and I don't feel I am too old. The pilot I replaced was 4 years older than me and determined to get into the airlines. However I am not looking to go into the airlines and debating whether or not I will even leave my current job in few years to 'move up'.

The unfortunate thing about floats is (like the airlines) everyone and their dog wants to fly them, so the wait is long, the working conditions are terrible, and the pay is low.

But remember, if it wasn't hard everyone would do it.

Best of luck

[Cat Driver]

You are never to old to do what ever you want.

If your dream is to fly float planes that industry is running short of pilots.

The last add in the employment section is offering $20,400 salary for three months and their experience requirements are relatively low.

Age is no reason to not do what ever you want, I am just starting a new career after spending my whole life in aviation.

Get your PPL as cheap as you can....then build as many hours as you can afford flying floats to finish your commercial license.

The secret is get the cheapest training you can find because all that matters is having the piece of paper that says you are a commercial pilot, everything else is B.S.

[360montana]

Good to hear I'm not the only one. I started flying many years ago and just last year finished everything I needed to start the aviation carreer. I went the route of fly a little, work a little... it took alot longer, but worth it as the job market was poor at the time and I was making good money pulling levers digging in the dirt, but I knew I could not do this(better I didn't want to) when I was 40. So I finished with no debt and 5 days out of school I landed my first flying job as an FO on a twin turbine making decent money and I didn't have to move out to no-mans-land... I had just turned 33. At this rate in a couple years, if all goes as planned(oops I just jinkst it) I'll be on the jet and airline ready before 40. Altho I do like the Corp gig and small jets are really cool. All I know is I am happier now making a little less money than I have been for years. Trooper on. I think employers value maturity... you'll do fine. Don't buy into the "I gotta work the ramp for a year before I'm worthy of flying BS" Leave that to the 19 year olds.

[Cat Driver]

Don't buy into the "I gotta work the ramp for a year before I'm worthy of flying BS" Leave that to the 19 year olds.

[SQ]

go for it
you'll never regret to have given it a shot

[Invertago]

If the industry were slow right now, Id say, work your current job, save up the $55k then blow it all at once flying full time and go aviation job hunting, but since the industry is good right now... take the loan, get'er done and go fly... Might be the best opportunity for the next few years, things will eventually slow down again and timing is everything.

[E-Flyer]

From what I have read - most ramp operators at these places are all 18 - 19, and being (at that stage) almost 27 would put me at quite a large disadvantage vs someone who is a lot younger. By the time I work my way up from the ramp I will be almost 30, and only just getting my first piloting job

I was sitting in Stanley park when a float plane roared low overhead, and I decided, THAT was what I wanted to do!

You almost answered your question right there, most of the 18/19 year olds don't want to do what you want to do. You know what they want to do? they want to fly the 767 for Air Canada within a short time of getting their CPL and MIFR rating. Even if they pretend that they understand what a pilot is and what kind of responsibilities is associated with that title, they still come out with the quote of "I'll be flying 737's in 3 years." I point my bottom to that comment. They will end up paying their dues and working for shit wages like most pilots do in the beginning of their career. The funny part being, that most of them end up wasting so much time trying to find a lee way to not pay their dues, that they end up falling behind in their career. Then I walk along and give them my "owned" flag and ask them to hang it outside of their basement.O

The idea behind these 18/19 year old's getting a ramp job in hopes of getting a right seat job for poverty wage, again lies in the leeway of them GENERALLY no wanting to wake up to deal with their boss when it's 3 SM in -30 degree weather for a 3 hour hop somewhere, or deal with a bad student or what ever.

I did say Generally, so don't start another flame LOL... I understand there are many people out there who are also either due to their situation, or interest, in these job's in hopes for better opportunities. But this is Generally speaking and I think most of the senior guys in here will agree with me.

In other words, get your Licenses' and Ratings, and just like CAT says, people are lowering requirements for float jobs so get out there and do what you love to do. My parent's always told me this. Find one big thing that describes you, that you love thinking about being/doing when you're bored, and find a career in it.

The professional pilot's here who run the boards would probably squirt out porn star, but no that wasn't it. Being a person who progressively learns in the aviation industry was mine. I hold my licenses, but I don't call my self a "pilot" yet cause I still haven't been out there in the industry to work, the only "learning curve" has been through my classes, instruction, and my presence around many fantastic pilot's who have told me their stories and taught me quality lesson's without the use of a white board



Do what you love man, if you wanna go up flying I am in the lower mainland, you can pm me. You seem to really like this profession that you're getting into


Good Luck !

[Barney]

Do it

[Alex YCV]

Here is an opinion, based on what is posted here.

If you consider 55k a year to be "just okay", then you need to take a second look at the piloting biz because you are a long way from getting back to that same pay scale if you move into flying. In fact, what people here seem to be suggesting is that your steps will likely include working in remote places shuffling bags for anywhere from 6 months to 2 years before you get to try out the right seat, and it might take you ages to get enough hours to move ahead far enough to get to a pay rate that would be anywhere near your "just okay" current job.

That being said, if you have it in your heart, in your soul... then do it.

[E-Flyer]

But I also think that by the nature of your title on the post here you realize that pilot's don't make that much until they're either senior somewhere or have enough hours to get a good job.

It might be until you're 40-45 until you start making good money.

[Lanc702]

At your "advanced" age you possess something it will take those 18-19 year olds many years to acquire. Experience in life. Wisdom. And knowledge. You will be better equipped to deal with the rigors that revolve around dealing with the personal challenges - the debt, the location and the changes in lifestyle than an 18 year old. They have no terms of reference.

As for being able to compete - maybe for straight back breaking laborious duties on the ramp perhaps they will out pace you. But in their exuberance they will undoubtedly create problems for themselves. The bull in a china shop theory.

Many oragnizations I have dealings with look at someone who has education (post secondary) or a number of years living on their own and working as an advantage. Those individuals have typically outgrown that sense of entitlement they had when they lived with mommie and daddie, they know what it means to have to deal with people, they have most often developed the ability to be less reactionary and more likely to apply skills, knowledge, and experience to solve simple to complex problems.

I think age has its advantages. Not all 18 year olds are disadvantaged in this way and of course not all older persons possess the abilities either - just don't let either be a personal show stopper. I pursued a different line of work despite starting out as a student in an aviation program. The inner business man came out and I took off in another direction - I still fly and I own my own aircraft but it is now a tool in my business tool box just like my notebook.

Cheers.

[alctel]

Thanks for all the supportive posts.

I do realise I will probably get paid very badly for the first few years - thats about the only reason I'm not ditching my job tomorrow and getting a huge loan out, I'm afraid I won't be able to keep up the repayments. I'm not very bothered about money at this stage of my life, I just like people, places and experiences (and I like photography). Also I think Twin Otters are damn beautiful. I can't take the 9-5 office job much longer.

I think I will get a second (and maybe a third job) for the rest of this year while I finish my PPL, pay off my existing debts and save up some, then get some (hopefully small) loans out while I switch to part time in my job and go full time training. We will see how it works out - hopefully the job market is still this good in two years.

Again, thanks for all the stuff to think over!

[v6g]

Wow - you sound almost identical to me 5 years ago (apart from thinking about the RAF after uni)

I think I will get a second (and maybe a third job) for the rest of this year while I finish my PPL, pay off my existing debts and save up some, then get some (hopefully small) loans out while I switch to part time in my job and go full time training.

That was going to be my advise. Your 30k debt, while it doesn't sound too much, adding in the cost of flight training + living expenses and your likely wage for the first few years as a pilot will likely mean that you will have an unsustainable debt (that is debt which you are barely able to make the interest payments on, let alone the principal).

Sticking to the IT job for a couple of years whilst training part-time will allow you to eliminate that debt. It will also allow you to deduct your training expenses from your tax - saving you about 23% of the training costs. You can't do that if you train full-time. Another beauty about IT is that you can be doing flying study while at work.

Also look into how an RESP might help you.

I would also suggest that 55k in IT in Vancouver is pretty low. I think you should look for another job, possibly closer to an airport (Richmond is good for tech work and close to CZBB) for lunchtime training trips.

Spending a couple of years now eliminating debt (whilst still studying hard) will put you in a much stronger position in a few years time. (although remember that UK student loans are only repayable if you're earning above a certain threshold - check this)

[E-Flyer]

Thanks for all the supportive posts.

I do realise I will probably get paid very badly for the first few years - thats about the only reason I'm not ditching my job tomorrow and getting a huge loan out, I'm afraid I won't be able to keep up the repayments. I'm not very bothered about money at this stage of my life, I just like people, places and experiences (and I like photography). Also I think Twin Otters are damn beautiful. I can't take the 9-5 office job much longer.

I think I will get a second (and maybe a third job) for the rest of this year while I finish my PPL, pay off my existing debts and save up some, then get some (hopefully small) loans out while I switch to part time in my job and go full time training. We will see how it works out - hopefully the job market is still this good in two years.

Again, thanks for all the stuff to think over!

If you're willing to walk into a small basement where you literally have a TV, Bed, Closet, Laptop, Cell phone in one room that is very small and pay 300 bucks for rent in the Main Street area, the 55 grand salary could more easily be utilized to pay your flying off.

One of my very closest friends is doing that and you should see what kind of hours he racks on with a 25/hr job. Imagine 55k a year. That's around 4500.

300 goes for rent
if u want to live it up in a nice car
700 towards the car with fuel and insurance
500-800 for food
lifestyle material - 500 bucks

And the rest towards flying - it's not bad at all. That's about 14-16 hrs of flying / month.


Good Luck

[SAA340-600]

u too old? ur joking right? 25 is the best age to start,,,ur not a kid and ur mature..(in my case this doesnt apply but i still strive for the el dorado that is maturity) Anyway, go for it, u will not regret it unless your scared of heights.

cheers

[Luscombe]

Too old? I didn't do my commercial until I was 34. I'm 47 now, drive a 737, no student loans and am still married to my first wife.

It's not an easy road (unless you're well connected or come from money to start), but with patience and determination you can do it too. I did all my training on the "pay as you play" plan. That is if I couldn't afford to fly, I didn't. I saved up while working at a "real" job and flew when I could. I know it took me a lot longer to get done, but I also had no student loans afterward which comes in real handy when you're making crappy pay.

If you really want to do it.... just get'er done. You'll be a happier man for it.

[WTB:PPC]

**

[Cold_Lake_Hvy]

I started when i was 18 got ppl..at 21 got CPL, ended with the hornet at 26 in the forces.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Evidently my earlier (mild) exaggerations regarding airspeed and cost were not well received. Call it learning factor of intensity. I will tell you this though, you can almost get two engines spinning over here for the price of flying that video game.

WTB:PPC...

I am not trying to rain on your parade but " That video game " is what aviation is in the 21st. century.

If you really do want to be involved in a top notch training program I would strongly suggest you move away from the technology of the past and embrace the technology of now and the future.

Mechanical instruments are to flying what the horse and buggy was to transportation on the ground.

[Topspin]

I started when i was 18 got ppl..at 21 got CPL, ended with the hornet at 26 in the forces.

How does it feel to wake up every morning and realise you are living every male between the age of 6 and 50's dream. You lucky son of a gun, I'll bet you had to earn it though.