I thought american beer didn't count

[Static]

Static et. al,

Firstly, Static, your poem was inapropriate, hateful, immature and spiteful. True or not, you crossed the line and decided to turn a topic about your poor decision making into an unrelated topic. Way to dodge the subject.

The intent was to be hurtful and spiteful, but the subject was not dodged. It was based on a 'fictional story' or so it says in the original post. But was we all know it was me who flew home with some oranges in the plane. What I (and the people I associate with) believe was right was 'spun' to sound like it was wrong. Truth is, there was no winning that situation, I was set up to fail just like one pilot who was told by management that the CSR's were changed to a particular true air speed...as it turns out they were not and he was confronted by ATC. Anyway, my point to the first poem was that if what I did was supposed to demonstrate poor decision making, management has done far FAR worse yet no recourse was ever taken.

Secondly, you share an opinion of PAG shared by basically noone other than YOU.

Basically? I'll bet a large percentage of my opinion is shared by 1) those who have left and 2) many of those still there. I guarantee you it's not just me.

Thirdly, you have no idea what the social aspect of PAG was like like because YOU WERE NEVER PART OF IT!

In fact, you are incorrect. BEFORE you began at Perimeter I was actively part of the perimeter social circle. This was when it wasn't out of hand...but I realized that a fun party always turned into a rowdy frat party with people drawing on others, taking horrible pictures of things being done to passed out people, and fights. I decided that it wasn't for me, but from time to time I'd check back to see if things had changed...and year after year....things had not in fact I'd even say they got worse. How is a person like me supposed to feel when at the christmas party, my name gets called as a prize winner, then, while collecting it, one person says "why would a Jewish guy come to a christmas party?" WOW, at that moment, I was done. I'd never felt so expelled, and I'd never felt so hurt in my life. So, to say I was never part of it is untrue, but my reasons for not rejoining it were clear.

Fourthly, maintenance didn't and doesn't hate pilots. They hate YOU! Mainly because of the total lack of respect YOU showed them. It is unprofessional to yell at maintenance in front of the passengers.

I love how the story gets flipped here...I wasn't the one yelling in front of the passengers, it was MAINTENANCE who was yelling at ME in front of the passengers. Also, I'd like to point out that one Maintenance supervisor told me specifically that maintenance didn't hate me, in fact he personally respected that I was detailed when conveying my maintenance issues, and he respected my care of the airplanes. I'm not the greatest at dealing with humans, especially when external influences from work affect that moment, so yes I'll blame Perimeter for putting me in a grumpy mood some days, but I'll blame myself for being not so nice sometimes. Believe me (maybe you don't) that I've tried very hard to improve in that area despite what many lazy people will say.

People are NOT leaving PAG because of anything other than you can only pay so much to fly onto the reserves for the rest of your life. People are leaving to go to WJ, AC, Jazz, Calm Air, etc, because they realize PAG isn't the be all and end all. People aren't leaving strictly for reasons of being unhappy. People are leaving to advance their careers. Please don't confuse this.

I'm not confused, I believe you are. Why would a metro 2/3 captain leave perimeter to become an FO on the same airplane? How does this help her career? The words out of the chief pilots mouth are that bearskin and calm air are sideways moves. I'll be he even believes Jazz is. People ARE unhappy or they would stay longer than 6 months.

As much as you and I didn't agree on many things (and we do agree on many), and as much as we weren't friends, I did have a small amount of respect for you for sticking to what you believe in. However the ignorant hurtful and self rightous things you have said have seriously deterioriated my opinion of you.

Boo.

Well, I don't blame you, but I didn't do it to make friends.

--Static

[Cat Driver]

This is like gawking at a wreck on the 401 where hundredsn of vehicles are so mangled it is impossible to even guess who was at fault.

The only sure thing we know is it was a serious wreck.

[CP]

Damn good entertainment!

[2R]

American beer is like making love in a canoe : It is fooking close to water

Technically the alcohol content is the same .It is how it is measured at the brewery that is different .

[Cat Driver]

Damn good entertainment!

I do not consider this to be good entertainment.

I think it is very disturbing to see these issues discussed on an open forum where the more we read the more we are wondering what level and quality of operational control this company has.

[Mr. North]

Which seems to be very little. They never really did appeal to me even though they scoop up the majority of graduates around here. My resume has never graced the CP's desk, and never will. This infighting is just disgusting.

[Disco Stu]

I am officially done with this thread. The verdict has been rendered as far as the drinking issue, and as I have said to others, I don't think this is the place for the PAG guys, current or ex, should be airing their dirty laundry. Discussions on personal integrity are also unrelated and detract from the issue at hand. My point and view on the drinking has been made, so I have no more to say about it.

I immensely enjoyed my time at PAG. It has it's issues, always has and always will. Same as any other company out there.

Anyone thinking of working there, please don't let this thread deter you from applying. What you are seeing on here is amongst a very small group of mostly EX pilots. The current group is not fractured. This is not infighting.

[Rudder Bug]

I'm glad it's over!

But we can still chat about american beer.

What american beer and making love in a boat have in common?

- Both are fucking close to water!

[Rowdy]

Giles, that gave me a good laugh!

Back to my sleemans!!

Hope this finds everyone in good spirits. Har har

[Driving Rain]

I was fired from Austin Airways in 1972 for drinking a beer less than 12 hours before my next flight. They had a 12 hour rule in their ops manual. Turns out they did me a favour.

[Steve_P]

edited-NO NAMES/Lil,

Rather than say something nasty I thought I would show you a picture of my cat "Hello Kitty".

[Rudder Bug]

Hey I though that was all over!

Please get back to the american beer!

[giligan]

Disco Stu, Well said.

I can't express my absolute disappointment in the moderators enough for leaving this shit on here. This thread has nothing to do with drinking. It is an embarrassment to the moderators, to the website, to Periemter, to all employees current and past, to all pilots in Canada and most of all, it is an embarrassment to Static.

This will be my last post on AVCANADA, not that anyone cares. I cannot be a part of something that would allow this to go on. It should have been stopped weeks ago, before you (moderators) allowed and promoted by your inaction the unraveling of a fellow aviator. Congratulations, I hope it is the entertainment value you hoped for.

Cat Driver, I would sincerely like to extend my utmost respect for your most relevant post on this subject regarding a support plan. My hat is off to you.

Static, I am also very disappointed in the path you have chosen to air your frustrations. You stated earlier, (when this thread still had some relevance) that the issue forced the resignation of your mentor. If you felt as strongly as you obviously do then you should have done the same. For your own integrity and mental health. The fact that you did not seems to only have made matters worse for you. The way you are coming across on here makes me sad for you. You truly cannot understand how you are making yourself sound or you would just stop. Please stop, for yourself and what integrity you do still have.

You obviously feel you have a legitimate beef with this company, Some words I have for you are:

Be the bigger man
You're not going to re invent the wheel
don't sink to their level (you are well on the way far below any level I have recently seen)
let bygones be bygones
turn the other cheek
sticks and stones...
I'm sure there are more but you get the point.

Perimeter has been around since 1960, they will be around for a while yet whether you like it or not and, they will still be hiring low time pilots to work in cargo and eventually promoting them to Captain, just like you did.

No matter how you feel about it now realize this.
They gave you a start in this industry in a time when there were no jobs out there, perhaps your path within the company wasn't ideal for you. That is truly unfortunate.
The bottom line is that working at Perimeter got you to where you are today, flying a jet for the second largest airline in Canada. A lot of people don't get the chance to do that, the hiring process is very thorough, think of the people you know that didn't make it. Think of those you have met that are no longer with us. Think of incidents surrounding Keystone and how that has turned out for some. You are fortunate, relax and enjoy it.

It's over, you got to a point where you had had enough and you left. Good for you. I'm sure it was a huge weight off your shoulders. Don't pick up the weight again. If you need to talk about it call EAP, it is a far better avenue.
The bottom line is that it is time to do some healing.

Next time you are passing overhead Berens River at 34000 feet look down and smile, if not for the (possibly few) good times you did have then while you are smiling just shake your head and be glad you don't have to do any of it again, ever. Then call the back and get a coffee and tell your skipper a story about circling in Lac Brochet or about the winters in Thompson or play a game of annunciator panel jeopardy (that one may not go over so well though)

You have made quite a name for yourself in the past few weeks, I'm sure there are some who agree wholeheartedly with you, I'm sure some do not. It's the latter that worries me for you.

if 23 pilots leave Perimeter every 6 months then every year 46 people move on to bigger and better things, since 1960 then there are 2208 pilots. You are around 30 years old, in the next 30 years there will be another 1380.
3588 pilots. If 25 percent of them take offense to your remarks...you get the idea.
I realize "you didn't do it to make friends" but people tend to take things personally, yourself and myself included.

I realize the rage you must have inside of yourself and also, that perhaps this is your way or revenge, or venting, or whatever you want to call it. I also realize that you feel you are undoubtedly right.
You have indeed caused damage, both through personal attacks and through anecdotes about your experiences in Northern Manitoba. You have also done damage to your mental self and to your character.

I must ask you to consider editing your posts, in the spirit of being the bigger man.
Your voice has been heard.
I urge you to let this go.

giligan

[CP]

I wanna see more poems!! You go Static!!

[xsbank]

And I wanna hear some more dirt! Yay mods!!

[Static]

HAHAHAHA
So in retaliation people have signed me up for gaycupid and salesgenie.
This is awesome, you guys drink and fly, crash airplanes at airports which you shouldn't have gone to, and you've cheated, lied, stole and soiled your own reputations. I don't care if you sign me up for this crap, I just cancel it LOL

Keep it up big boys.

Let's all remember, that three pilots consumed alcohol then operated airplanes in violation of CARS and morals. The company made it seem like it wasn't a big deal which is just as bad. Why not stand up for a child abuser or rapist? Believe me, if I was ever in a bind for doing something intentionally illegal in aviation (not bloody likely) I'll hire Perimeter management to lie for me.

Let me ask this question;

Do we need to crash a plane in order to have criminal charges brought to us? Why not for something that could have lead to the same result but for some reason (luck?) didn't end that way?

--Static

[TopperHarley]

HAHAHAHA
So in retaliation people have signed me up for gaycupid and salesgenie.
This is awesome, you guys drink and fly, crash airplanes at airports which you shouldn't have gone to, and you've cheated, lied, stole and soiled your own reputations. I don't care if you sign me up for this crap, I just cancel it LOL

That's the best retaliation ever! My brother once signed me up for a NAMBLA membership when he was mad at me. Fortunately I never ended up qualifying for it...

[Noob]

Static,
I couldn't help notice your very strong reactions to what has been posted. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that this type of behaviour had been going on for months and this was not an isolated event. Surely you knew, and by knowingly letting it continue with your strong convictions it begs the question: why did it take you so long to do anything?

[Static]

Static,
I couldn't help notice your very strong reactions to what has been posted. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that this type of behaviour had been going on for months and this was not an isolated event. Surely you knew, and by knowingly letting it continue with your strong convictions it begs the question: why did it take you so long to do anything?

Actually, Noob, I spoke out very loudly against many things there. Almost none of my suggestions were ever acknowledged.
I can tell someone their plane is injured, and I believe it is unsafe to fly, but I can not hold them by the arm and prevent them from flying it. I can make report after report (there are probably over 100 with my name on them at Perimeter) but can not change what people do or think unless they want to change. This was the helpless feeling I experienced on a daily basis during the time where I began to want to leave. It may be easy for someone to say "why didn't you just quit?" Well, after working there for 9 years, it's not an easy thing to leave, especially after investing such time and effort into the company. I didn't want them to fail, I wanted them to fix some small problems which I felt were leading up to big problems. You don't just quit because something gets tough, you try even harder.

Obviously there came a point for me where it just wasn't worth it to try any more...hence my resignation.
So now I receive hate mail and such, and Perimeter employees are under the impression that the management I so sorely spoke of is completely innocent. Well I assure you (ALL OF YOU) that they are not. Their lack of action regarding one of the most serious offenses in ALL of aviation is the example. It's ok to drink and fly, we'll give you time off, you can use your vacation if you want, we'll even pay you. Wow, why not just pat them on the back and say "thanks for getting the freight home...good job."

It's interesting how so few people agree with this point of view, i wonder if it's because those who disagree are guilty of the same actions? Maybe they are afraid that they may be held accountable one day and if they support punishment they will have to pay themselves one day. Well, I say fight for what is right, and if you do wrong, accept the consequences. I know I have.

--Static

[YWG Sequoia cleaner]

Static

It's easier to understand the mentality you worked with if you just compare it to that cult recently broken up in Texas. They just don't know your not supposed to have sex with your sister.

That's the way they want it.

[2R]

I was fired from Austin Airways in 1972 for drinking a beer less than 12 hours before my next flight. They had a 12 hour rule in their ops manual. Turns out they did me a favour.

Different times ,Different company.Last year i heard of a fella taking a co-pilot who had just had a beer flying and all that happened was he was given a week off to work on his house.the co-jo got three weeks vaction.
saw a guy crash a Be-18 after a four day bender .but that was also mechanical issues as well but he was demoted to navajo jockey and hated it.Some companies will think you weird if you cannot drink all night and go fly scheds in the morning .

Nevermind eight hours some guys use the eight foot rule if you cannot throw the empties eight feet you should not be flying

As always it is the bad drivers who give the alcoholics the bad rap.I have worked with functioning alcoholics it is the bad drivers that give them all a bad rap.The guys who cannot walk and chew gum without falling over should not be allowed near the beer fridge.
Hungover pilots are more dangerous than someone after one beer /wine for lunch.

[sky's the limit]

If it makes anyone feel any better, there used to be a couple old bush pilots in Yukon who I swear couldn't have flown sober to save their lives. And I'm not talking about have one beer either.

There's always two ways to interpret any Law, Letter and Spirit. Holding every Law to the letter can be somewhat difficult, as it seems Static is finding out, but there are just some you can't mess with.

Out in Drill camps, there's lots of booze, LOTS of drugs, and after flying 10+hrs on a long line, it's VERY tempting to have a beer or two, the only problem being, that in the North, the sun doesn't go down, and you have crews up on the mountain drilling a Night Shift. (How this is even legal with WBC is beyond me, but that's another story) You are the Medivac machine, even though it breaks EVERY Duty time law out there. Soooo.

You either break the Law to get a guy with a head injury or a mangled limb off the hill after you've maxed your duty day and have already gone to sleep, or you have a beer before you go to bed, and hope like hell nobody gets hurt. Or you do both, and break both Laws all at once in a nice little package..... As I said, on 24hr sunlight jobs, I don't drink at all, because at a practical level, I am the ONLY option when something goes wrong. And it does, quite a bit. Adding alcohol to that mix doesn't make the Emergency Breaking of Duty form read any better for the folks at TC, if you get my drift.

stl

[Static]

You either break the Law to get a guy with a head injury or a mangled limb off the hill after you've maxed your duty day and have already gone to sleep, or you have a beer before you go to bed, and hope like hell nobody gets hurt. Or you do both, and break both Laws all at once in a nice little package..... As I said, on 24hr sunlight jobs, I don't drink at all, because at a practical level, I am the ONLY option when something goes wrong. And it does, quite a bit. Adding alcohol to that mix doesn't make the Emergency Breaking of Duty form read any better for the folks at TC, if you get my drift.

stl

This thought crossed my mind several times...but I justified it in a very selfish way. If you put a gun to my head and said do what is right or what is wrong, I would say "let him die, better him than me, the co-pilot, the nurse, the doctor, the people on the ground AND him." I know it's very selfish, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I think it takes a lot of guts to say something like that, and it's far easier to say when that phone rings "oh...ok, we're on our way." We must remember that the rule is there to protect us.

Anyway...

--Static

[sky's the limit]

That's exactly what I'm talking about Static.

Making decisions like breaking duty when there's a guy who's hurt and I am the only means of transport, is an easy one in my humble opinion. To take that particular Law by the letter is just plain stupid. This is what "decision making" is all about. Would I do it a beer in me? Not sure, as I just don't put myself in the position where that is the choice I'm left with. Quite simple really.

stl

[Static]

That's exactly what I'm talking about Static.

Making decisions like breaking duty when there's a guy who's hurt and I am the only means of transport, is an easy one in my humble opinion. To take that particular Law by the letter is just plain stupid. This is what "decision making" is all about. Would I do it a beer in me? Not sure, as I just don't put myself in the position where that is the choice I'm left with. Quite simple really.

stl

What a load of crap.
The LAW is written so we don't have any control of the decision. If we DECIDE to break the law we must be held accountable. If I HAVE to get my car home but I'm drunk, does that make it ok for me to drive? Shall I just disobey the law?
What if I'm late for work? May I speed?
Doing a medevac is no different. Maybe someone was a suicide risk, or had a broken leg, well I only got 1.6 hours of sleep, the fo has a cold, and the nurse is sad because of a divorce. Wow, we're an awesome team in tip top shape to fly an airplane, provide medical attention, and be at our sharpest.
Life and death situations come up all the time regardless of where you are. What if you are on a passenger plane and a medical emergency occurs, is the airplane authorized to immediately do what ever it wants? NO of course not, we have a procedure to follow strictly within the letter of the law, we can't exceed flap speeds, we can't descend without a clearance, and we can't just land at any old airport. Safety is extremely important, and that law (which you are so eager to disregard) will keep us safe.

Here is another example...
If someone is being attacked at night, they call the police, a police car not too far away starts toward the area with urgency and exceeds the speed limit. the police car fails to illuminate his lights and fails to engage his siren (both requirements in the hi-way traffic act for exceeding the speed limit), the police car smashes into a mini van carrying a mother, her three kids, and the neighbors kid, all of whom are immediately killed because the mom didn't judge the police cars excessive speed when she turned into his path.
The police officer survives and has to face an inquiry. He was only trying to do the right thing by helping a person in need, now he's killed 5 people instead...simply because he disobeyed the law which was in place to protect other people.

Flying when unfit under any circumstances is dangerous and illegal. End of story.

--Static