I thought american beer didn't count

[sky's the limit]

Hmmmm,


I'm starting to see why you had some trouble at your last employer.

I'm going to shatter your world here - LIFE IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE.

You either totally do not understand the situation I wrote about above, which I doubt, or you really have very little capacity for initiative, thought, and problem solving. In the IFR world, people like you get by because of the structure, in my world, you just don't.

If you are suggesting that leaving an injured person 7000ft up a mountain over a hundred miles from the nearest medical help, purely because the pilot is dutied out, you're insane. Duty times are a relatively new thing, and in some places I've worked on this planet of ours, they simply don't exist. Planes and helicopters are not falling out of the sky.

Up to this point I've been rather interested in your side of this thread, if not your approach, but now I can see more clearly.

One quick question. Who do you think writes these Laws you follow so diligently, aviation or otherwise? You assume the Law is inflalable and covers all circumstances - they are not, and they do not. Thinking otherwise is akin to having your head in the proverbial sand. It seem the two crew, IFR, SOP, major airline route is the ideal situation for you.

Good luck in your career, may you never need somebody to think outside the Law on your behalf.

stl

stl

[Mr. North]

Flying when unfit under any circumstances is dangerous and illegal. End of story.

So your latest arguement is that when saving a human life the above statement still applies. And you know what? It does! But it still wouldn't keep me (or anyone else with a conscience) from doing it. There are some decisions that must be made outside the law, and saving a human life would definately be one of them. Toss the CARS binder in the back seat, grow some balls and some compassion.



Like STL mentioned, I too found your situation interesting yet it's much more clear now! Obviously your skill set and abilities are not suited for this area of the industry. Good luck with the airlines but with that mentality of yours I wouldn't be surprised to find you washed up and working for TC.

[200 hrs]

I doesn't sound like Static had any issues at his previous employer, oh wait, maybe he did!!

I guess it must have been all the employer's fault!!!

Ha ha

Again,

Ha ha

[Check Pilot]

So - here it is - - - with folks that are willing go ahead and fly with an ability or a sense of heroism that's impaired by alcohol to get a "trip" done.

Not in my lifetime, if I get my hands on you Bunky! You're done with me if I catch you.

As CAT knows, TC folks will lock on to drinkers without any kind of fair play and snarl and shake you until you're long without a licence. Hope you had a nice drink idiot! Best of luck in the future!

[Four1oh]

Static, I just want to warn you, that next time you visit toronto, you should heed this law that I found:

"It is illegal to ride a streetcar on Sunday if have been eating garlic in Toronto, Ontario, Canada."

You were warned right here in Avcanadaland first! Beware!

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

Beautiful thread. What I love about it is the simple realization that PAG is not unlike everywhere I have ever worked, minus the drunk pilots of course.

[Mr. North]

Well Check pilot, STL and I were talking about the duty time as a limiting factor in regards to saving someones life. What your referring to I wouldn't do either.

[sky's the limit]

Mr. North,

It's becoming rather obvious that there are a number of people who would like to think they have it all figured out. Unfortunately those people seem to have either very little, or very narrow experience within the industry. It's a little bit like religion, they rely on the system to give them the framework in which they operate, thus abdicating all personal responsibility for the larger picture, and making them rigid when dealing with smaller, 'uncovered' issues.

Rules, laws, and SOP's just don't cover all situations and scenarios, particularly in remote operations, or in areas with difficult environments. In those places you must use your head, and yes, that includes not drinking before flying, flying hung over, or a million other things. But, it doesn't preclude breaking laws or rules when a potentially life threatening situation demands it, or you find yourself caught for one reason or another. On many occasions I can think of in the past, breaking CARS was most certainly the better of the options. That's not to say a person becomes accustomed to breaking them, it's just to think there are situations where it's not warranted is naive in the extreme.

I'll say it again, life isn't black and white, and in many applications in our industry, real thought, decision making, and initiative is required. Thankfully, there's IFR and SOP's for the rest.

I sure wish I knew everything you guys seem to know.


stl

[Cat Driver]

As CAT knows, TC folks will lock on to drinkers without any kind of fair play and snarl and shake you until you're long without a licence. Hope you had a nice drink idiot! Best of luck in the future!

Actually Check Pilot when I was a functioning alcoholic I never ever had any contact with TC about my drinking, generally true alcoholics are masters at hiding their problem.

I made the decision to quit drinking on my own for several reasons the main one was eventually it was going to kill me and I knew I would have to quit flying eventually for obvious reasons.

I joined AA did not drink for two years, after a long day water bombing someone offered me a cold beer at a B-Bque.....about two years later my drinking had gotten to the stage that I had to do something so I called Schick Shadel in Seattle and paid $11,000.00 for their treatment program.

TC's only connection to my problem was when I gave my treatment records to my Aviation doctor and had him make it part of my aviation medical records.

I told him if I ever drank again he was to fail my medical and advise TC of the fact.

It's been 23 years and I have never had another drink.

As to your thoughts on drinking and flying from the position of a TC inspector you are correct there should be zero tolerance for pilots who drink and fly.

The problem is drinking is insidious and some are experts at hiding it.

If you go back in this thread I mentioned companies having a support program for problem drinkers.

It at least would be better to get it out in the open and deal with it.

After that zero tolerance must be the only rule.

And as a TCCA aviation inspector it is as you state your duty to enforce such rules without exception...period.

Pilots caught drinking in violation of the CAR's should receive the maximum penalty allowed under law as there is " NO " defense for such actions.

[TheEvilTwin]

Ahhh yes, this thread... every morning some more entertainment with my morning cup of coffee.. who needs the newspaper,I think this thread is starting to cover world events pretty good...

We have drunk pilots
Disgruntled Employee stories
Examples of people getting killed in car accidents
Give me the hockey scores and its all covered!!

Until tomorrow morning....

[Cat Driver]

I am sorry for you that you find these subjects so boring The Evil Twin..

For the rest of you I suggest you read and ponder these issues because both Check Pilot and I are two of the most experienced pilots on Avcanada and I personally can attest to the fact that Check Pilot is a TCCA employee who I have the utmost respect and admiration for because he does his job with integrity.

[TheEvilTwin]

I never said they were boring... I find it rather interesting , but at the same time amusing how threads on here always seem to wander... by all means this is a serious issue, and I am not going to judge on how things were/are dealt with at this particular company, thats their business...(I guess now its the internets business as well... gotta love the internet...) this is one of those threads that will go on forever and a day with examples of what you should and shouldn't do in situation X, Y and Z... and why Billy Bob decided to go and Little Johnny didn't...

I am sorry for you that you find these subjects so boring The Evil Twin..

For the rest of you I suggest you read and ponder these issues because both Check Pilot and I are two of the most experienced pilots on Avcanada and I personally can attest to the fact that Check Pilot is a TCCA employee who I have the utmost respect and admiration for because he does his job with integrity.

[Cat Driver]

by all means this is a serious issue, and I am not going to judge on how things were/are dealt with at this particular company, thats their business...

Lets just assume that a company has a problem with pilots drinking and flying in violation of the rules am I to understand that the problem is the companies business and there should be no outside interference by anyone including the regulator?

[TheEvilTwin]

Ahhh but as far as I know the company *DID* forward the information onto relevant sources (TC) and the culprits were indeed suspended in time by TC... sorry if there was a misunderstanding there If a company were aware of a situation and did not deal with it accordingly yes, then there is an issue.

As I said, how a company themselves deals with individuals is by their choice, but in the end TC was very aware of the situation, and dealt with it. Everyones disiplinary actions are different, I may see a situation that warrants some action, and maybe you don't see the same situation the same way... (Not just drinking, any situation for example)

How I choose to discipline by children may be different then how you choose to discipline yours... are we right or wrong in the way we do it differently??

In the end with this situation, the overall actions were properly completed in my opinion... the pilots were suspended by TC , and they've hopefully learned their lesson... maybe the companies suspension policy was not in agreeance with other employees, maybe they should have been dismissed over it... it is not the other employees job to make that decision... from the sounds of it, several people were upset with managements decision (and still are) and some moved on, thats by their choice. If I don't like where I am anymore, I'll change it on my own as well...

Ahh well... time to go outside and play...

by all means this is a serious issue, and I am not going to judge on how things were/are dealt with at this particular company, thats their business...

Lets just assume that a company has a problem with pilots drinking and flying in violation of the rules am I to understand that the problem is the companies business and there should be no outside interference by anyone including the regulator?

[Lurch]

Ahhh but as far as I know the company *DID* forward the information onto relevant sources (TC) and the culprits were indeed suspended in time by TC... sorry if there was a misunderstanding there If a company were aware of a situation and did not deal with it accordingly yes, then there is an issue.

As I said, how a company themselves deals with individuals is by their choice, but in the end TC was very aware of the situation, and dealt with it. Everyones disiplinary actions are different, I may see a situation that warrants some action, and maybe you don't see the same situation the same way... (Not just drinking, any situation for example)

How I choose to discipline by children may be different then how you choose to discipline yours... are we right or wrong in the way we do it differently??

In the end with this situation, the overall actions were properly completed in my opinion... the pilots were suspended by TC , and they've hopefully learned their lesson... maybe the companies suspension policy was not in agreeance with other employees, maybe they should have been dismissed over it... it is not the other employees job to make that decision... from the sounds of it, several people were upset with managements decision (and still are) and some moved on, thats by their choice. If I don't like where I am anymore, I'll change it on my own as well...

Ahh well... time to go outside and play...

The way I've read it and understood it this isn't what happened.

I'm not going back 6 pages to find it but the way I read it they were constantly drinking on this run management had been aware. They did it again and somebody (not the sober Captain) complained to Management. Management finally decide to take action and suspend them, they could use their vacation time and get paid if they wished. Some how later the media found out and released the info to the public. This is when management decided to "inform" TC of the infraction. They then continued to justify it to the public by saying "boys will be boys". This is what annoyed their fellow employees, how management dissmissed the drinking with a shrug and a wink.

Hope I got that right, I'm sure somebody will be more then happy to correct anything I got wrong

Lurch

[TR]

EvilTwin has it right.

Lurch you have been mislead by the posts and posters.

[YWG Sequoia cleaner]

EvilTwin has it right.

Lurch you have been mislead by the posts and posters.

The above post maybe heavily biased by personal opinion & excessive amounts of Orange Crush

[Lurch]

EvilTwin has it right.

Lurch you have been mislead by the posts and posters.

How long between the time of the incident and the notification of TC?

[wet power]

Year 2037: Static celebrates his 30th anniversary as an FO at Jazz and wins "the most senior FO ever" award. In the same year he has sex for the first time, animal right activists are still investigating. He succesfully removes all the transmitters from inside his teeth. Transport Canada is forced to expand its storage facilities to make room for Static's letters. Thanks to internet, Static finds his ancestors came here in the early 20th century from planet Remulak.

[Check Pilot]

Ya just don't get it do you.

Static stated he did not like people violating the CARS about drinking and flying.

I'm with him. If you drink and/or fly while impaired and I find out about it, you're gone. I'm normally kind of passive about some of the rules and I understand sometimes they can get "bent" a bit. Sometimes I might even ignore so called "technical" non safety related violations that are committed unintentionally. That's only because I didn't see it going on in the first place. I trust people to do it right anyways - even when I'm not looking, however. For the most part folks do get it right just about all of the time.

Not this one though. If I catch you flying and drinking or flying impaired even though it's more than 8 hours with a vicious hangover - - your Licence and the money you spent on getting it AND your career in aviation is OVER.

Any talk about busting any other CARS about anything else on this thread is a red herring. Drinking and flying is not acceptable anywhere in the world.

If you are having trouble with booze, please get some help. PM me or CAT (if you don't mind there .) if you do have a problem. One of us can probably help you. I'm in an unfortunate situation because I'm not an alcoholic myself and don't understand the recovery program very well - unlike my father- who understood it all too well and overcame the illness too. You too can overcome it, but only if you choose to make that kind of decision for yourself.

[buster79]

so you never flown a dehavilland then?

[Check Pilot]

Yep,

I have. - A few thousand hours and a few years of my time too.
That was a long time ago when the "old" standard about drinking and flying was still in effect. Folks could still get away with it then. Maybe 1970 or so.

Not anymore.

[Mr. Incredible]

Hmmmm,


I'm starting to see why you had some trouble at your last employer.

I'm going to shatter your world here - LIFE IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE.

You either totally do not understand the situation I wrote about above, which I doubt, or you really have very little capacity for initiative, thought, and problem solving. In the IFR world, people like you get by because of the structure, in my world, you just don't.

If you are suggesting that leaving an injured person 7000ft up a mountain over a hundred miles from the nearest medical help, purely because the pilot is dutied out, you're insane. Duty times are a relatively new thing, and in some places I've worked on this planet of ours, they simply don't exist. Planes and helicopters are not falling out of the sky.

Up to this point I've been rather interested in your side of this thread, if not your approach, but now I can see more clearly.

One quick question. Who do you think writes these Laws you follow so diligently, aviation or otherwise? You assume the Law is inflalable and covers all circumstances - they are not, and they do not. Thinking otherwise is akin to having your head in the proverbial sand. It seem the two crew, IFR, SOP, major airline route is the ideal situation for you.

Good luck in your career, may you never need somebody to think outside the Law on your behalf.

stl

stl

you said it RIGHT stl

I've had the "disspleasure" of enduring multiple days with static <----- some ppl are better off staying right seat!...............think outside the "BOX"
the sad part is that no matter how hard you try or want to beat it into him he will NEVER get it! HUTAS (Head Up The Ass Syndrome)
some ppl are book smart and thats all, it dosen't always help you in the real world.

Mr. I

[shinysideup]

With all these young (inexperienced) pilots coming into the industry and moving up through the ranks so quickly I think there is going to be a greater need for a strong role model at the senior (experienced) captain/management level, then there has been in the past. e.g. (only if this is what happened) If management let the pilots get away with drinking while on a lay over/still on duty over the years, sooner or later someone was going to abuse it.

All 703/704 companies are having issues with keeping experienced pilots these days, maybe they need to pick a couple of guys that are positive role models and make sure they stick around. i.e. more pay, more time with their family, more holidays

Just a thought.


Everyone has brought up some good points but the problems still exist and need to be fixed (or just adjusted) sooner rather then later. Not just at PAG. Help these young pilots and lead them in the right direction and help them keep the skies safe for everyone.

I'm not saying you need to be a prude, but remember that you are a role model to your FO. I have seen some cocky young pilots, but I have also seen where most of them get their attitude from. Yes, from their role models.

[Static]

Hmmmm,


you said it RIGHT stl

I've had the "disspleasure" of enduring multiple days with static <----- some ppl are better off staying right seat!...............think outside the "BOX"
the sad part is that no matter how hard you try or want to beat it into him he will NEVER get it! HUTAS (Head Up The Ass Syndrome)
some ppl are book smart and thats all, it dosen't always help you in the real world.

Mr. I

Disspleasure eh...
This post is now about thinking outside the box...
I guarantee I knew more about the airplane, more about operating it safely, and more about aviation than you know, or will ever know.
I also guarantee that you learned some very important things from me, and refused to learn others. Why do you say some people are better staying in the right seat? I'm not sure I understand what makes you think you would deserve it any more than me? I earned it by passing tests, flying thousands of hours, doing 600 hours of single pilot ifr on the baron and driving myself as hard as I could to learn and know.

I always taught people because the operation we worked in required people to know as much as possible. It also required discipline. Maybe that was tough for you to absorb...while you were polishing your 300$ shades.

Allow me to use this example which resulted in some close to home pain. I refer you to the Perimeter medevac crash in Shamattawa in 2001. The crew was tired, when they departed ygo for ztm, on approach found themselves too high and too fast for a stable final approach to landing. This type of thing happens, it's a matter of prevention which is a direct result of following SOP and planning ahead, but as we all know, doesn't always happen. This is where the discipline part comes in. Are we going to salvage the landing and be super pilots or are we going to revert to SOP and call a GO AROUND add max power, raise the gear and flaps and point the nose up 15 degrees? Welll, this crew did not initiate a go around, they thought outside the box. The captain thought they could do a low circuit, at night, in a black hole to save the landing. Now, I don't like to use their fatal mistake as an example, but it's the ultimate price for straying from the rules which are meant to keep us safe.

I also love this example of a united airlines dc10 which found it's self in a very precarious situation over iowa with no hydraulics. It wasn't supposed to happen and they did the best they could to get the plane to an airport...they almost landed as we all know. So let's break this down just a bit. They came up with a creative way to solve a problem which was not covered by any book, they integraded a fourth crew member to control a position that did not exist, and they crashed. Did they think outside the box? DEFINITELY. Let's break it down further. Is it possible to have prevented the crash? Not after the compressor blade broke. At least I doubt it. Well, what if all the rules were followed right from the beginning? What if the compressor blade had been produced and inspected properly? I'd say the imperfection would have been caught and this crew never would have had the need to be so creative.

If we start by following the rules, and everyone does it, things should work out, but as soon as someone throws a wrench into the mix, the rest of us must get creative, stray from the rules, and find ourselves in a unique and possibly dangerous situation.

I'm not saying pilots shouldn't think, but I'm saying they should be disciplined enough to follow the rules to the best of their ability and LOCK UP THEIR SUPER PILOT. I read earlier that the rule breaking (super pilot) shouldn't be incorporated into a normal routine of flying, which I agree with 100%, but as the earlier conversation went about a life/death situation...I put a lot of thought into it and realized something. I said I wouldn't put the fo, nurse and everyone on the ground at risk, but what if they wanted to take a chance and save a life...I realized that I wanted to make that decision for them...but I can't.

I've never been put in this situation, but I would risk myself to save someone, and if they all feel the same, I would have no hesitation. But if someone resented the idea, I would not even consider the option. People might question my decision making, but I did my best to kept myself out of situations where I'd have to make the choice to break the law or not. Making my decisions very easy. If the windshield shatters and we have nothing in the book, then I must use my skill and knowledge from many thousands of hours of effort to safely guide the plane groundward, but i shouldn't have to deal with that problem if everyone before me followed the rules.

Thinking outside the box is good for solving problems that we have created for ourselves or problems that others have created for us...ALL from breaking the rules.

So go ahead and be a super pilot, get in every time, load passengers with the engines running, go a little over weight, lie about your fuel burns and ground speeds, smoke beside the fuel tanks, but remember you are affecting people other than your selfish selves.

oh ya, and the company didn't want anything done about the drinkers, and that came right from the President. So if your child walks over and beats the crap out of another child should you not discipline your child? I'd be pretty pissed if it was my kid who was beaten, and I'd insist that something be done. So if you do nothing, then I have every right to speak up...which is what many employees did thank goodness. Now it's not a big deal...well that's a load of crap.

--Static