The CHAMP is Back

[Doc]

I see American champion Aircraft is making the Champ. Dubbed the 7EC, it's powered by a 100 hp 0-200 and starts at 88K USD. That could mean a new lease on life for the basic flight training operations looking for something unique? Max gross on the Champ is 1320#.....that's a light aircraft! I'd like one. Hey Cat, what floats would you put on one of these?

[Cat Driver]

Hey Cat, what floats would you put on one of these?

Edo 1400's.

How about you Clunkdriver?

[MichaelP]

Just to reiterate and I'm sorry to douse enthusiasm here, but the new Champ is certified as an LSA and is therefore not certified in any way in Canada.
I asked!
I'd like one too, and even better the Legend Cub, but TC put the dampers on it!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Just to reiterate and I'm sorry to douse enthusiasm here, but the new Champ is certified as an LSA and is therefore not certified in any way in Canada.
I asked!
I'd like one too, and even better the Legend Cub, but TC put the dampers on it!

AAAHHHhhhh....yes.

seniorpumpkin wrote:
There was a twin otter imported from Alaska recently. It had a full efis set-up, a great IFR machine. Sadly transport had a problem with the set-up because it hadn't been approved in Canada yet. So the whole thing had to be ripped out and replaced with good old analog dials and guages.

The stupidity of bureaucracies is mind numming...but hey we pay them to do this to us.

[Doc]

Isn't that just typical. Same mentality that prevents the use of GPS to be a totally "stand alone" nav system. To be able to use a system capable of finding a Coke can in the forest, we must have a back-up system that can't find Texas!

I'd love to see some YOW based desk nerd's reasoning behind that one. If it's safe in the States, I can't see how it wouldn't be safe in Canada?

[Cat Driver]

I'd love to see some YOW based desk nerd's reasoning behind that one. If it's safe in the States, I can't see how it wouldn't be safe in Canada?

It is simply astounding, how can people so stupid be in control of an industry?

[2R]

The Champ is a great plane ask anyone from the RAA in Sechelt /Gibsons.Always had a big smile after flying their Champ .Maybe it was relieve at still being alive after a ride that was a lot older than me .
Those logging roads never were far from glide distance in that wee beastie

If you want a real giggle ,Nevermind GPS ask them about ehanced vision landing systems .The response will amuse you .
Those systems do not see through "all precipation all the time" so they would not approve them for small planes as they do not trust us to go missed when we get down to minimums .I wonder who gave them that impression
I guess the medivacs will keep going missed at minimums when they are not approved for vision enhancements .Oh wait the Government would have to pay extra for those safety improvements through the contracts.so if they do not approve them ,they will not have to pay for them

[Hedley]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but one obvious
idea is to offer reciprocity as follows:

Any FAA LSA is instantly eligible for "owner maintenance"
category in Canada.

I don't think FAA LSA aircraft technically qualify as ultralights
in Canada (according to Transport's defintion), nor is it a
homebuilt by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is it a
certified aircraft.

But owner maintenance is a great place to put these
aircraft, many of which are updated antiques which
are already eligible for this category. People could
buy them and fly them around the patch with minimum
paperwork hassle.

FWIW.

[Doc]

I got an invite from the factory to take a test flight in the new Champ and the 118 hp Aurora. I'm headed down on my motorcycle in May or June to take them up on their kind offer. I shall report back! I haven't flown a little tail dragger in years...should be a hoot!

[Doc]

I'm curious. Since the original Champ was a certified aircraft, what makes it an "LSA" and keeps it out of Canada? Is it operating with a different type certificate? Me must look into this.

[MichaelP]

Is it operating with a different type certificate?

Yes it is.
I think because the Sport Pilot craze in the USA has created a a large market for less fit and qualified pilots to be able to fly simple aircraft the LSA certification rather than conventional aircraft certification is more profitable.
I suspect that an LSA Champ would be acceptable to Europe and many other places in the World but not in Canada.

[Cat Driver]

I suspect that an LSA Champ would be acceptable to Europe and many other places in the World but not in Canada.

Michael you wouldn't want to fly a factory new airplane that went through the certification process in the USA would you?

You just don't understand that TC is trying to protect your life by forcing you to only fly forty year old airplanes that were......certified in the USA.

[Doc]

Well put, Cat. I figure if a forty year old airplane can pass muster (WTF is muster??) a brand spanking new one, with up to date fabric and modern know how, should be a no brainer!

[jamesel]

Passing Muster would have to be done by yourself, i'm afraid.
With all the fancy stuff people want on their planes - self-commencers, lights, etc. the useful load suffers quite a bit under the LSA rules. The standard factory empty weight on the Champ is 950#, with a Gross of 1320 - you get a useful load of 370#!!! Most a/c are at lesast 20# heavier - radio, lights, other options.
Not much left over after fuel.....full fuel (17 usg =102#) useful of 248 to 268#!! I don't think you could stuff a pair of floats under this plane and be legal with any pilot.
Most of the other LSA's aren't any better. The Cessna 162 is about the same. I don't there'll be any big renewal in flight instruction in the US if two average (ha!) size 'Merkans of 170 # put you over gross.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yes, there are some considerations when you take into account the max all up weight allowance.

Now lets look at the reality of these clones of cubs and champs.

I'm building a PA11 clone under the homebuilt rules, it has a Cub Wag Aero wing, which is cloned after the original Cub.

What gross weight shall I use when I get it finished ?

I know the Cub wing will lift a hell of a lot more than it was certified for, and having flown them crop spraying I can truthfully say they will truly carry a hell of a load.

One day my ground man filled the Cub with a liquid fertilizer and forgot to read the label on the drum.....I thought the thing was heavy on take off and climb so when I finished putting it on the farmers field who had delivered the drum I checked the label on the drum and it weighed 14 pounds per gallon.....yes the Cub wing will lift a real load.

OH.....legal loads and training aircraft....

I wonder if the flying schools ever exceed the all up weight of those Cessna 150/2's?

[Hedley]

What gross weight shall I use when I get it finished?

Choose the max gross weight for the stall speed that you
want. For a certified aircraft, that stall speed is not supposed
to be greater than 61 knots or 70 mph. With a higher stall
speed comes the requirement for longer runways for both
takeoff and landing. If you've got an old SAC base, well,
maybe a stall speed of 90 mph might work.

Another consideration for max weight is how much thrust
is available. Being able to put a positive number on the VSI
(say 300 fpm) for the density altitude of your airport is a
good idea.

Of course, then there are structural considerations. How
many G do you want to pull? An engineering margin of
50% is a good idea. Some people like 100%. So, if you
want to pull +3G's, your airframe had better to be able
to take at least a +4.5G (or +6G) elastic load.

[MichaelP]

a brand spanking new one, with up to date fabric and modern know how, should be a no brainer!

Not true...
The 1966 Citabria Pro operates has been very good maintenance wise, it was rebuilt all but one wing and had less maintenance problems than the Cessna 152s. (Now it has both wings rebuilt with crude metal spars).
The standard of training in this aircraft was better than the run of the mill 152 instruction, tailwheel pilots are a different bunch!
Compare it with the troubles of the 1996 Citabria also rented out for a time here at Boundary Bay. It's build quality was not as good as the older aeroplane and it had snag after snag to the point the owner stopped renting it out.

Modern know-how? I believe there was more craftsmanship in the past, things had to last longer.

[Doc]

Just got an email from the VP from ACA. Seems the Champ is FAA approved with it's original type certificate. Can't see how TC can keep an aircraft out of Canada that's operating on an approved type certificate? Maybe I should pick one up and do tail wheel training? Hey Cat, want a part time job?

[Hedley]

Ain't that simple. Wish it was.

Is the production certificate the same as well? I
would highly doubt it, given the number of decades
that have gone by.

But even if they were ...

A few years back, I tried to import a Pitts S-2C which
has the identical type certificate and production certificate
numbers as the Pitts S-2B, of which there are already some on
the Canadian registry. Should be a done deal, right?

But Transport tells me that I can't import the S-2C,
even though both numbers are the same, and
both aircraft were built by exactly the same people
at the same company at the same location.

Go figure. Mountains of paper, Doc. The guy that
pushes the most, wins.

[MichaelP]

One of today's e-mails:

American Legend Aircraft Company Offers $2,000 In Free Options On Its Legend FloatCub

SULPHUR SPRINGS, TEXAS, MAY 4, 2008 – American Legend Aircraft Company announced today the company is offering $2,000 in free options with the purchase of its acclaimed Legend FloatCub certified light-sport aircraft. The offer allows customers to purchase a new Legend FloatCub ready to fly at a base price of $121,025 plus his/her choice of $2,000 in optional equipment at no extra cost. A variety of options are available to enhance the comfort, convenience, and safety of the aircraft. This offer is good through May 2008.

The Legend FloatCub is the seaplane certified version of the #1 selling American made light-sport Legend Cub. It weighs less than comparable aircraft, costs less, and has the added advantage of doors and windows on both sides of the cockpit. This single design feature was built into every Legend Cub, but is especially appropriate for the float-equipped model allowing pilot/passenger entry from either side of the aircraft. It also allows the pilot/boatsman to dock his craft as the drift dictates left or right.

The Legend FloatCub was first flown and certified in 2005. Now in its third year, it performs more like a tiger than a Cub. Equipped with Baumann 1500 floats, the Legend FloatCub does not see the significant performance losses that most seaplane pilots have come to expect. Most aircraft drop 20-percent in speed due to aerodynamic drag. The Legend FloatCub cruises at a top speed of 92 mph, a mere 10-percent less than the wheeled Legend Cub. Climb rates typically drop 40- to 45-percent with the addition of floats. In the Legend FloatCub this decrease is less than 30-percent, or about 500 fpm versus 700 fpm. The Legend FloatCub is the ultimate personal seaplane that outperforms. It hauls a respectable load, is safe, offers comfort, operates affordably, and most of all it delivers fun.

In 2006, the Legend FloatCub was awarded Best Float Fabric Seaplane at Sun ‘n Fun Fly-In. The aircraft was demonstrated there at the world renown Jack Brown’s Seaplane Base and participated in the two-day Splash-In event at nearby Lake Parker.

American Legend Aircraft Company manufacturers the Legend Cub, Legend FloatCub, Legend Combat, and Legend Cub Special—all FAA-certified aircraft for sport, recreation and training. The American Legend Cub is an all-new aircraft design similar in appearance to the classic Piper J-3, PA-11, and L-4. Its flying characteristics are attuned to the joy of flying. Completely modern in its design, materials, and available options, the Legend Cub blends the best in history with the best of today.

For further information, contact American Legend Aircraft Company at 1810 Piper Lane, Sulphur Springs, Texas 75482; call 903-885-7000; or log on to http://www.legend.aero.

I'd love one... but....

[Cat Driver]

$121,025