For Widow

[TenForTwelve]

Hi Kirsten,

I just saw an update on W5 about the recovery of C-GAQW's engine. I don't know all the facts, but for what it's worth coming from a random guy on the internet, I admire your dedication in your search for the truth. Thank you for all your contributions in trying to remind us all to be safe out there. I hope you find the answers you're looking for, and more than that, I hope you find peace for you and your family. Thanks again.

[Widow]

Thank you TenForTwelve. If the coroner ever finishes the Judgement of Inquiry, we just might get a little peace through closure. And I've still got a few "tricks up my sleeve" that might soon bear some juicy fruits! Most of all, I don't want any other family to ever have to face the obstacles we have.

[lazyboy]

I watched the W-5 program,the cylinders all looked intake and no major cracks that I could see.Safety board also said it was in good shape.Who to blame now......I do feel for all involved but believe the time has come for the families to move on.I still think it was a bunch of factors that led to the crash,weather,pilot & mechanical.Not to speak ill of the deceased pilot,but can anyone shed light on his pilot & decesion making skills.

[Widow]

Have you read the TSB engineering report on the engine lazyboy? They did not identify a mode of failure. That does not mean there was no failure. As we said in the W-Five episode, we are having an independant (read non-partisan) analysis done on the aircraft. Whether that will determine a mode of failure has yet to be seen, but that engine was NOT in "good shape".

And what is it time for us to move on from? What closure have we been provided to help us "move on"? Five men died and the TSB can't be bothered to prepare a report. They cannot be bothered to make any recommendations as a result of this accident. They couldn't even be bothered to tell the coroner that they were not going to be reporting ... so three years later the coroner finally figured out they could have produced a Judgement of Inquiry years ago ... but still hasn't done so. Transport Canada can't be bothered to do an investigation into infringements of the Labour Code that might have affected this accident - nor can any official body be bothered. This investigation has been fraught with ineptitude, callousness and, IMHO, negligence since it happened.

Pilot decision making? Gee, why hasn't the TSB analyzed his skills? Makes me wonder if you're one of those people that thinks if they'd been flying it would have ended differently. Come talk to the witnesses the TSB couldn't be bothered to talk to. Look at all the FACTS that the TSB couldn't be bothered to report on.

You want me to move on? You tell me what has changed so that no one will face what we've faced - then I'll move on.

[Hedley]

You tell me what has changed

You probably won't be interested in this observation, but ...

I keep getting the feeling that you expect the government
to do the "right thing" or a "good thing". I see the same
behaviour from my sister. She rather idealistically campaigns
for various causes in the rather vain hope that the government
will eventually, finally do something right for a change.

I wish I could somehow communicate to the both of you
that the odds of the government doing the "right thing"
is right up there with my sprouting wings and flapping my
way to the moon this morning. Or, a monkey typing at
a typewriter and producing a wonderful, memorable sonnet.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just extremely unlikely.

I would never, ever be so unrealistically idealistic as
to expect the government to ever, in a million years
to actually do the "right thing".

I just wish the government would stop doing horrible
things. A completely inert government that did nothing
at all, would be about as good as it gets.

Governments do not have the populace's best
interests at heart (snort). They have their
own best interests at heart. Unfortunately the
two rarely coincide.

[Notta Simfalt]

You guys can only hope someone tries this hard to get a proper investigation if something goes bad for you.

[twotterflogger]

I still think it was a bunch of factors that led to the crash,weather,pilot & mechanical.Not to speak ill of the deceased pilot,but can anyone shed light on his pilot & decesion making skills.

Wow, do you realize how much of an asshole you are?


1) Don't speculate. I doubt anyone here want's to hear "your unbased opinion" anymore then Widow does.

2) You do know that your using a thread that is a "hang in there, we support you Widow" into what i would call the equivalent of a "knife being twised into someone (Who genuinly cares about your safety in the industry) side.

Smarten up pal.

[lazyboy]

Hell if something happens to me I hope my wife moves on and not let what happened consume her life.The industry has come along way in the 25 years I been flying,still has a long way to go.Its going to take more than Kirsten to change the mindset of the aviation industry.I do believe there may be some mechanical issues that caused the engine to die,or cause a reduced power approach,but also think weather had lots to do with it.Anyone should be able to land with an engine failure failure....fly the dang plane......

[. .]

Well certainly nothing was going to be done. It's my genuine hope that with enough pressure that changes can be made. For an industry that should be so focused on safety, it's anything but in most of the 703 world. This only exists because the group charged with oversight and regulation of our industry turns a blind eye to just about everything.

I was a company which operated 703 Aircraft awhile back. A friend of mine died with 7 passengers aboard. Transport came up and did a very very basic investigation. Just enough that they could say they'd been up and taken care of things. They didn't find it odd that this certain plane type left with minimum VFR fuel 360 days a year flying into crappy weather. It didn't matter that other planes that left IFR were flying to airports without an IFR approach and were getting in 99.9999% of the time. They didn't look into the obscene use of block times assigned to trips, and it's sole purpose of allowing crews to exceed monthly and yearly time restraints so they could make more money, but fly tired. They certainly didn't look at any of the overloading that was going on, because everything looked good on paper. The only damn thing they mentioned in the report was the nature in which the night circuits in his training were done. I had real hope that they would come in and clean up the mess, make the company a much safer place for everyone. I only wish that the pilot group could have tried to force them into it, with 8 bodies in their recent memory maybe it could have worked. Certainly we didn't have anyone like the widow trying to make things better for us.

[. .]

Lazyboy.

A. You're a fucking insensitive prick.

B. Glad you're the worlds best pilot. Since you're an expert on exactly what happened, you're sure there was no oil on the windscreen? You're sure it was just a simple engine failure, and nothing else could have possibly been wrong?

C. The industry doesn't change for its' own sake, it changes because change is forced upon it. How nice of you to sit back and enjoy the changes made on the backs of dead pilots, yet refuse to support someone else trying to make change. Widow isn't doing this for her own good. She's out trying to make changes to an industry that she'll never benefit from.

[Cat Driver]

endless maybe just does not know anything about the conditions on that day.

.Anyone should be able to land with an engine failure failure....fly the dang plane......

Unless of course he has a radar altimeter in his head, I would like to see him land on glassy water in poor visibility with little or no power.....

[scrambled_legs]

Widow, I had the same thoughts as lazyboy after watching the program. I'm sure he doesn't mean to come down on you. As an outsider looking in, watching that program makes you feel like all avenues have been exhausted. If I remember right, your last expert said that there must have been an engine failure because of oil streaking the windscreen and that all they needed was the engine recovered to prove their theory. Yet when you recovered the engine, there was no major damage found that would have caused this and the accident remains a mystery. The way the program is presented, rather than being left with a feeling of TSB/TC negligence, you feel that the families have fought hard to get to the bottom of it. Despite major resistance they had a full recovery of the aircraft and every indication that there was a major mechanical failure, has now been proven unlikely. Rather than wanting to support your quest, you feel like an overwhelming feeling of sympathy and hope that the families can put this behind them and move on. This is just the way the program comes across, and obviously it could be completely incorrect, after all it is the media.

Hopefully the coroner's report sheds some light on the incident but I think you do have to be prepared to have your questions unanswered. It's unfortunate but not uncommon to have an aircraft go down for unknown reasons. Without a block box, ATC transcripts, Radar coverage and a CVR, it's pretty hard to find the cause and make a recommendation. They could spend the TSB's full annual budget investigating this incident and only come up with theories and likely scenarios. Some tragic events will always remain unknown. Unfortunately that is the reality of the situation. Hopefully knowing that many people on this board have some understanding of what you've gone through, and hope that our loved ones would be half as strong as you, can be of some conciliation. Also understand that all of us would also want our loved ones to be able to eventually put it behind them and move on.

On another note, endless did you ever talk to TC or the TSB about all the problems that you were well aware of, or did you just sit back and hope they discovered them on their own? There's a whistle blowing process that I hope all pilots are familiar with:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/securitas/index.asp
The TSB has implemented SECURITAS, a confidential program through which you can report potentially unsafe acts or conditions relating to the Canadian transportation system that would not normally be reported through other channels.

I can't believe how many people take the time to flame a company on this board but don't bother taking any action towards solving the problem. Widow is the only one that I've seen that reports on here to give us updates on what she is doing to solve the problem. Everyone else has lots to say over a beer or on an anonymous forum but that is all. Endless, if everyone of the company employees sent in a report to securitas before the accident, or after, I have no doubt that TC would have been a lot more thorough. I've filed a report and the results were swift and effective. If they weren't, you could have leaked the report to the media and they would have been all over it. As it stands, you're just another bystander that is disappointed that TC didn't discover the secrets that you know. The industry is getting better but without using the programs in place, it won't get much better.

[. .]

scrambled legs: Unfortunately I didn't talk to transport about what happened. I was very new in the industry at the time, and had more faith in their ability to right a wrong at the time. What you say is true though, it does make me just another bystander that wasn't contributing to a solution. Looking back on it, it's so tough to be a new pilot in your first job that you've worked so hard to get, and stand up and speak out against things which are wrong. The Industry was pretty much at rock bottom and I was more concerned about keeping my unsafe job than getting fired and trying to fix things. I'd like to think I could make better choices now. For what it's worth, do you know when transport set up the whistleblower stuff? If it existed when that accident happened, I certainly didn't know about it.

[scrambled_legs]

I don't know... it is a confidential system and one that you shouldn't fear your job if used. It might be worth starting a thread for and including in all the ground schools for commercial pilot. There may be some schools that are against it but it definitely would get the word out if 30% of the schools started informing students about it.

[lazyboy]

Cat.....I just do not agree with flying single engine over long stretches of glassy water....period.I have gone 30-40 miles out of my way to avoid this.No different than going around a lake with whiteout conditions.

Endless....I am not insensitive,nor the best pilot.I also feel for widows loss.But the world goes on....she will not change the it

[Cat Driver]

How much time do you have flying on the west coast lazyboy?

[lazyboy]

All my time is in the flatlands...and have no intentions of flying in the mountains,or the coast.I will leave that to you experts.

[Cat Driver]

All my time is in the flatlands...and have no intentions of flying in the mountains,or the coast.I will leave that to you experts.

We are only pilots that get to know local conditions.

The west coast weather can change from 60 knot winds in one inlet to calm glassy water and low ceilings with fog in one trip.

So if you were not able to fly in those conditions your employment would be short lived.

It is just another risk like flying in cloud in the mountains IFR and if an engine fails at the wrong time you go either to heaven or hell.

[lazyboy]

Its not that I can't learn to fly on the coast with all you experts,I have no desire to fly out there...

[scrambled_legs]

lazyboy, whatever credibility you may have had is quickly disappearing. To criticize a pilot from your lazyboy is one thing, but to criticize a pilot that flys in conditions that you have no experience in, from your lazyboy, is the height of ignorance. I was defending your first post, but now I have to agree with everyone else. You're quickly proving that you are everything they say you are.

[lazyboy]

lol....What, can't take someone asking questions?I was not criticizing the pilot,I was asking about his experience,and flying habits?No, I have not flown the coast other than 50 hours when I was building time on a C-180.It was not for a flatlander like me.I do think that maybe people push the weather on the coast,but all the power to you if thats what you want to do.I am happy here flying the bush of northeren sask,Mb,and Ont.If you take my post as being ignorant so be it.
I'm off on a holiday to Northeren B.C(driving) so won't be able to answer your replys.
Safe flying

[lucky37]

You can watch the W-5 episode entitled "Kevin's Quest" here:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... ?hub=WFive

[Arthur Q]

endless while this is a sensitive issue for some. I would expect better from you. Name-calling and sarcasm is the last way to get your point across. After reading your retort you offer some valuable points, but null it by your opening remarks.

[Hickory Stick]

Widow:

I can't imagine what you must be going through but I hope you find your closure eventually. My dad used to work at a shitty labour like camp of a company. Eventually after a death and a few near fatal injuries, the workers got together and formed a union. My dad was elected a union rep and tried his best to make the company a better place to work. In the end he did it. But he did have to retire early due to health problems brought about the daily harassement from management.

The guys working there now enjoy a safer and more fair work environment, but my dad got shafted. Don't get shafted Widow, find your closure but realize that your health and sanity are something you should not put on the line for TC or any other governmental agency. In the end you may get the answers you want but at what cost?

Cheers

[Cat Driver]

Arthur Q:

I don't often stick up for endless.....but...this does have some merit.

Lazyboy.

A. You're a fucking insensitive prick.

He was only expressing what many here were thinking, now it was not exactly PC but once again many here are not PC.