Mass exodus at Wasaya

[Doc]

I worked at Austins (many years after Cat, I'm really young!) and I don't recall them having pilot/rampies? I flew at Wasaya for a few years. They did employ pilots as ramp rats. That was ten years ago. At least. Seems longer. Can't say I've missed it. Some of the ramp rats back then have really done well. I know one who is a 1900 captain, for whom I have nothing but respect. But, that said, it was a different industry ten years ago. Jobs were really few, and far between. Today, there are pilot jobs, yet companies continue to "employ" these "pilots in bondage", perhaps not as "cheap" labour, but certainly to "use". They are not given a seat in the order in which they arrived, but more in order of who sucks up best. Funny way to "promote from within" for a unionized company.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Doc, I've been trying to figure out what company Pratt X 3 is referring to.

It is possible I did work for some company that had rampies waiting for seats but off hand I can't remember where it was.

[Reality Checker]

Nice piece of back peddling! Some of you flip flop more than a northern pike pulled into the boat too soon.

So let me see if I've grasped all the worldly wisdom that has been bestowed upon us by the guys that have circumvented the globe with all engines out, navigated by stars through oil covered windscreens and redefined aviation everywhere they have landed.

1) Once you have achieved the coveted CPL status the only job in aviation you can accept is pilot, anything less you are a moron and a discredit to the aviation community.

2) Before you can fulfill the requirements of condition one you must request copies of the resumes for all of the current staff working for the 1st employer that is considering you, this is to ensure yourself that they employ no pilots in non flying positions. Any company that employs pilots in non flying positions is a lower than an earth worm on the food chain of aviation.

3) Stick together and collectively tell anybody that disagrees with one and two to stick it where the sun don't shine.

My advise...Do whats going to work for you! Nobody on this board is going to reach out and put bread on your table.

If tomorrow an amendment to the federal labor code was passed that said all persons with valid CPL's can only be employed in flying positions within the aviation world the cries of foul would be unprecedented. There would be a new record for the number of posts on Avcanada. Flight schools would be closing the doors faster than you can say...but Doc & Cat Driver said.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Nice piece of back peddling! Some of you flip flop more than a northern pike pulled into the boat too soon.

How do you figure I'm back peddling Reality Checker...so far all I have said is I don't recall the company Pratt X 3 is referring to.

Of course you are entitled to think what ever you wish and it will not really affect my life in any way.

[Reality Checker]

. you should climb down off that soapbox you have in front of your computer, I can't say I have ever seen anybody that is as self-important as you. Why is it you think every comment on this board is about you? I don't think for second about how or if my thoughts have any effect on you.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I can't say I have ever seen anybody that is as self-important as you. Why is it you think every comment on this board is about you?

Who else would you have been referring to when you look at the context you posted in?

[Reality Checker]

Well as far as context goes I was referring to Doc, perhaps you meant order of post. On the other hand if you see yourself in my remarks maybe I've made progress in getting you to look at things from another perspective than your own.

[Hoov]

I have a feeling he is referring to the CMA post, which I originally thought was Cat Driver at first too, because of the punching cat. A closer look reveals that it is someone else with the same avatar.

[Wacko]

Well as far as context goes I was referring to Doc, perhaps you meant order of post. On the other hand if you see yourself in my remarks maybe I've made progress in getting you to look at things from another perspective than your own.

Test your might, Test your might.
MORTAL KOMBAT!
FIGHT!
MORTAL KOMBAT!

[Lastcat]

Austin Airways employed low time pilots as flight attendants, loadmasters and ramp rats in YPL in the 80's before they merged with the old Air Ontario and sold their bush operations. This was probably the beginning of this practice and was welcomed by the flightcrews as the quality and safety of the aircraft load organizing was superior given the character of the non-pilots available to do the job.

[Reality Checker]

Impossible, this is a new phenomena. It has clearly been stated by the senior members of this board that this insidious plot to rob new CPL's of their entitlement was hatched by the now defunct V. Kelner Airways. In fact we have been told that the term wannabe was also coined at the same company, I understand that the amassed wealth gained from this tactic has been used to petition Websters to have the term included in the next revision. Both Cat Driver and Doc worked there, they would never work for company's that employed slave tactics. (Bad form don't you know) besides, we have heard repeatably on this topic that none of this ever occurred during Cat Drivers time in Canadian aviation.

[Freddy_Francis]

RC...take no offence to my post here...Now Doc and Cat Driver don't need my defence..but it's pretty obvious your the one crying foul here. I think its pretty fair to say that if your working ramp/dispatch or any ground entry level position its a good way for the employee himself to see if its a company he wants to stay with. Everyone is making it sound like its only the other way around.

However if your stuck on the ground for over a year and your not even being checked out, put in ground school or flying empty legs...then really your just being exploited. You can't argue that. There's no shame in working a ground position...but realisticly even with a fresh CPL you should be trainable on any aircraft.

I think that its Sunwest....if im wrong or if someone could mention other companies who do a part time fly and part time ramp/dispatch gig. Your seeing two sides to your employee...his flying skills and the work ethic everyone keeps on talking about. Anything over a couple of weeks...thats right weeks....without a check-out, ground school your just being used and thats where all the bitterness comes from.

NOTE: Im not trying to offend you and I respect your opinion but really...think long and hard about it. Whether you've worked the ramp or not...how does it make sense to have your potential pilots rusting away with bitterness and their flying skills going down the drain by staying on the ground.

I've said it once ill say it again...were all in this together we should seriously be helping the next guy/gal not making him suffer...

[Doc]

Relality Checker, since you obvously know me, I'll be in YQT this morning having coffee. Come say "hi"...I'll evem spring for the coffee. Shall we say, the terminal around ten?

[Rudy]

MORTAL KOMBAT!

I'll take any of you at Mortal Kombat. I'll be in YQT Monday morning with a pocket full of quarters.

[Mustard]

Do you actually think that companies are parking planes to make pilots work the ramp?
No they are not. There simply isn't enough openings for the new pilots. So some eager
folk choose to work the ramp for next possible flying job.
I'm sure they don't stop putting resumes out and would leave in a second for a flying gig.

Oh and to all the new pilots. Don't take career advice from people on this forum.
Just because you are older doesn't mean you are wiser. I think it's been well proven on
here.

[Liquid Charlie]

After all the back and forth here all I can say is that if you choose to work the ramp don't feel violated if you are worked to death and are still left on the outside looking in. Never count on that being a fast track to a seat -- and never whine and cry when you don't get what you want -- suck it up and move on. Never believe anyone who tells you different -- you are not going to necessarily get that seat just because someone blew smoke up your ass -- it's no one's fault but yours and believe me life will educate you on how to take it up the ass gracefully. The first job is the toughest as we all know but if you think you can just get a ramp job and they owe you for all your hard work -- well I got some land in florida to sell you. Take it all for face value and just because someone went that route will not make it your right or guarantee you a spot in line -- there are so many pilots out there who will make an "off the cuff" remark about you that screws any chance you had and you won't even know about it. You are just a grunt -- a ramp rat -- nothing more -- I don't even want to know if you are a pilot and really don't care -- it's actually better if I don't --



Oh ya -- the "old silver backs" may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer but one indisputable fact -- they're still hear to piss you off so they must be doing something right.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Liquid Charlie the aviation community has moved into a new age era of discovery and you obviously have not noticed.

This from another forum:

.,

Pretty sure I was not referring to you, at least I didn't think I was? But if you want to take it that way then I guess then ya...you are an idiot.

This was offered during a discussion on what exactly it takes to be a professional pilot.

Please get with the times Liquid Charlie and accept the fact that the things you and I always believed to be attributes that would ensure a long safe successful career were wrong.

The new consensus on what makes for a professional pilot that will fly for decades with no incidents , accidents, regulatory infractions or other injurious happenings is you have be an idiot.

I'm living proof that that is what it takes.

[pt6vstpe]

Hey Doc, is that you in KJI?

[trey kule]

This is obviously an emotionally charged issue, which I suppose, is natural enough with people calling each other stupid and idiots etc...I specifically like the "twat" thing. Seems that should have been pulled, but I digress.


Here is the question that comes to mind. why would anyone who has a commercial license and wants to work as a pilot work on the ramp UNLESS there was either an actual or implied enticement there.

I have seen companies talk about being upfront with no promisses , and then right after go on to say how they always promote from within, hire from the ramp etc. Talking out both sides of your mouth. There is an incentive that you are implying, pure and simple.

As to flying empty legs etc. You should not, as a pilot, be acting as a crewmember UNLESS you have received formal company training, both on the ground and in the air...not just a couple of circuits but a complete training program. dont fool yourself; otherwise, you are a passanger and if you start logging it you might actually think you know something about the machine. You would not be the first pilot that found out how mistaken they were moments before they died. I have heard, literally hundreds of new pilots say they need training and experience to safely operate a machine....havent seen more than a handful who really believed it. Most just want to get that precious log book entry and think they can fly pretty much anything with winds.. Aint true, and when you do get some experience you will understand why.

Personally, I still think it is exploitation of the stupid. Not the ambitious . Not the hardworking.
Just plain old stupids.......ask yourself this. What kind of a company does this, and do I want to ultimately work for that company?

[xsbank]

Kind of a round-about way of getting there, but Trey gets it.

I'm not advocating turning a low-timer loose in a 1900 without training but my rant was meant to encompass those who are trying to get on that 180 on floats, too. If you really were hired to be a pilot eventually and you are NOT getting the training, whatever it means in your outfit, you are being screwed.

Wasaya is the new poster-child for exploitation of its workers and it amazes me that those who have advanced through the ranks actually stay there.

Didn't they recently get a union? Gee. Wonder why?

I'm surprised that nobody picked up that bit about training low-timers how company loyalty means nothing, dumping on those of 'lower ranks' is the norm and I see that this treatment/process lays the groundwork for those who will jump from company-to-company, plane-to-plane and think nothing of leaving an employer stranded - why do you think they do this? Because outfits like Wasaya taught them that unless they were very ruthless, they would not be able to advance their career.

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy that Wasaya and similar begat the training bond!

[Liquid Charlie]

Liquid Charlie the aviation community has moved into a new age era of discovery and you obviously have not noticed.

I'm learning -- slowly -- but need more beer

I'm living proof that that is what it takes.

Living is the key word --


Don't worry . they will eventually have intercourse with life and mature gracefully -- maybe Damn -- why do some people still think the world owes them a living --

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You still got that machine you want to trade Charlie?

[EliteMiles]

Lets not forget where the views of how to treat wannabee's start at the top of the company. Lets not blame everyone who shares the views of the chief pilot. These views are afterall his brainchild. Everyone knows wasaya's wannabee views start with him.

[airliner]

this topic started kinda strong but turned LAME.

[seniorpumpkin]

I'm not posting to endorse working the ramp by any means, but I do think some kind of explanation is required here on behalf of those rampies who weren't so lucky to get a flying job right off the hop.

These poor bastards finally get their license, they go out in the world to find a job.... they put forth their best effort to find a job, after months of trying, they get nothing. whether they have a crappy resume, or they didn't put the time in to shake hands, whatever, they've gotten no offers. Then finally some shady company offers them a ramp position. What do you think is going to happen? Of course they're going to take it. It's better than staying home and working a non-aviation job. I think it's important here that we don't blame those rampies with a CPL for being in the position they're in. It's not necessarily their fault that they couldn't get anything better.

From an operators point of view you can't blame them for finding cheap unlimited labour. The problems arise when they coerce these new pilots into working for them by promising a quick upgrade to a plane, when in fact that is unlikely. Also it is poor practice to pay these people a crappy wage, pay them a respectable wage and they will do a respectable job if you ask me.

Can we put this issue to bed now? (I know it's wish-full thinking)