Kinda funny how, we all (including myself) get into aviation, knowing the salaries are crap and yet all everyone does is whine.
So that being the case, why did you get into it? Think way back to the good times when you thought it was a good idea to be a pilot?
salaries.
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split s
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For those of you that have only flew airplanes for a living-there are alot of (crap) jobs out there that pay more but if you are not happy it's not worth one more penny in the long run. So I do not have to think back at all to when I thought it was a good idea, it still is a good idea(I love the time off). As a side note, If there was a website devoted to sanitary workers, trust me they would be on there whining and wanting more money as well.
Here is a thought:
Pilots are the only group of workers that I can think of that even though most of us are underpaid given our responsibility when we are in the work environment it is nothing but an attempt at perfection. This is true professionalism and we should be paid for it......whether it is a 172 or a 747.
Pilots are the only group of workers that I can think of that even though most of us are underpaid given our responsibility when we are in the work environment it is nothing but an attempt at perfection. This is true professionalism and we should be paid for it......whether it is a 172 or a 747.
Exactly. The level of responsibility, especially on a larger machine, and the degree of specialization is what justifies better salaries than what they currently are for most folks. Most of the well-paying jobs in the world are so because the guys/gals doing them took a lot of years to gain the education and experience to be able to do what they do, and they cannot be quickly replaced by some schmo walking in off the street.CAL wrote:Pilots are the only group of workers that I can think of that even though most of us are underpaid given our responsibility...
Is driving an airplane any different?
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Northern Girl
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Wings
I never wanted to fly - after all I was just a ...sigh...girl. Flying was for boys and you had to be super duper smart ( not being at all facetious - I honestly believed that)
So a friend sent me up on a trial introductory flight as a present.
I took one look at the world from up there and decided to get my private - you know, see if I could do it and all that.
Well I never stopped there. Sitting up there in the sky with that view, just me and God and the wind whistling past, I decided that there was no desk in the world I was gonna get stuck behind!!
The cockpit is the best office in the world. I am never so happy. 13 years later nothing has changed. I dont care about the money ( well........it's not my driving force). And if I dont like the company - I can quietly leave.
How I wish more of you talked about this stuff and less about the gripes. My mama brought me up never to air dirty laundry. I would never bad mouth a company/an ex/an enemy except for in the comfort of my own living room. Good god - now I even sound like my mother. Back to flying.................................
So a friend sent me up on a trial introductory flight as a present.
I took one look at the world from up there and decided to get my private - you know, see if I could do it and all that.
Well I never stopped there. Sitting up there in the sky with that view, just me and God and the wind whistling past, I decided that there was no desk in the world I was gonna get stuck behind!!
The cockpit is the best office in the world. I am never so happy. 13 years later nothing has changed. I dont care about the money ( well........it's not my driving force). And if I dont like the company - I can quietly leave.
How I wish more of you talked about this stuff and less about the gripes. My mama brought me up never to air dirty laundry. I would never bad mouth a company/an ex/an enemy except for in the comfort of my own living room. Good god - now I even sound like my mother. Back to flying.................................
A wise man (who happened to be a pilot) once told me that eventually the actual flying of the airplane becomes its own reward. Aviation eventually becomes just a job, even though it started out as an "I can't believe they are paying me for this!" career.
Typically the physical flying of the aircraft is only 10% of the job (depending on the company). There is weather analysis, customer relations, hotel stays, layovers, waiting for pax on charters, training, loading bags, etc. In fact I look forward to sitting in the plane and flying because that's the only rest I get!
Mind you I love being in different cities and different countries, meeting new people and visiting new (or familiar) watering holes. Somehow sitting at home on time off just doesn't cut it. And by the time you are in a "good" position at your company, you can't leave the sched or the money you are finally making.
Alas we are glorified limo drivers. Or maybe taxi drivers.
Typically the physical flying of the aircraft is only 10% of the job (depending on the company). There is weather analysis, customer relations, hotel stays, layovers, waiting for pax on charters, training, loading bags, etc. In fact I look forward to sitting in the plane and flying because that's the only rest I get!
Mind you I love being in different cities and different countries, meeting new people and visiting new (or familiar) watering holes. Somehow sitting at home on time off just doesn't cut it. And by the time you are in a "good" position at your company, you can't leave the sched or the money you are finally making.
Alas we are glorified limo drivers. Or maybe taxi drivers.
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bob sacamano
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What cab driver spent near $40,000 to earn his licence? and thanks to this attitude, once he's got them, he gets to wash/load-unload/fuel his limo, rather than drive it.DashMan wrote:Alas we are glorified limo drivers. Or maybe taxi drivers.
Try saying this statement anywhere outside North America (i.e. Europe, Asia, Middle East, South America, etc.) and let us know how many share your views.
Last edited by bob sacamano on Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
People get into flying because they love it. But they stick with it (or not) because of the pay (or lack of it).
The problem is that all the big, fat high-paying airlines like Air Canada, United and Delta are all broke. Don't know if you heard or not, but retired Delta pilots just had their monthly retirement cheques dropped from us$12,000 to us$3,000.
It's supply and demand. There are too many pilots chasing too few seats, and that lowers the price of the commodity which is the qualified and experienced pilot.
If nobody wanted to fly, operators would have to pay a high price to fill the seats at the front. That isn't the case, obviously.
We're like orange juice, or pork bellies from an economic standpoint. Operators would get rid of us if they could.
Airbus has been pushing the single-pilot concept for years. Remember the fuss when they got rid of the flight engineer?
The problem is that all the big, fat high-paying airlines like Air Canada, United and Delta are all broke. Don't know if you heard or not, but retired Delta pilots just had their monthly retirement cheques dropped from us$12,000 to us$3,000.
It's supply and demand. There are too many pilots chasing too few seats, and that lowers the price of the commodity which is the qualified and experienced pilot.
If nobody wanted to fly, operators would have to pay a high price to fill the seats at the front. That isn't the case, obviously.
We're like orange juice, or pork bellies from an economic standpoint. Operators would get rid of us if they could.
Airbus has been pushing the single-pilot concept for years. Remember the fuss when they got rid of the flight engineer?
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rdy4immediate
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lottery ticket
I think that we fall into the same category as the old man that spends 40 bucks a week on lottery tickets, he knows that the chances of him winning are 1,000,000,000 to 1 but it's the dream that one day..... we all picture ourselves walking through the Terminal with the 4 bars on, making good bucks, well at least enough to pay for the hydro to boil the water for our Kraft Dinner so we don't have to take it dry
PA - practicing Alcoholic
CA - Confirmed Alcoholic
AA - yeah you'll be needing that
PA - practicing Alcoholic
CA - Confirmed Alcoholic
AA - yeah you'll be needing that
.See I have a problem with Northern Girls response
"13 years later nothing has changed. I don’t care about the money ( well........it's not my driving force)".
You see, I do care about the money; I do believe that it very important. If I couldn't make a living flying I wouldn't be in the industry. The attitude of the "well I'm so happy to be flying" is why we get paid poorly. There are to many people with this attitude, give your head a shake people. If you don't care about getting paid to fly; rent an airplane on the weekend, and let us who do, make a descent wage
"13 years later nothing has changed. I don’t care about the money ( well........it's not my driving force)".
You see, I do care about the money; I do believe that it very important. If I couldn't make a living flying I wouldn't be in the industry. The attitude of the "well I'm so happy to be flying" is why we get paid poorly. There are to many people with this attitude, give your head a shake people. If you don't care about getting paid to fly; rent an airplane on the weekend, and let us who do, make a descent wage
Nice to see all the respones.
For myself I love my job and even though the pay sucks a@@ I would not give it up one bit.
However, when do we all say as pilots, enough, is enough.
Everyone is bitching about it, yet noone person(myself included) has steppped up to do anything about it. How can we say I want to work for you but your going to pay me a good wage, and know that the next guy will do the same thing.
I think that this is the only industry that is around the we spend 40K on schooling and will stab everyone else in the back to get a job even if it takes working for free, just to get in the industry, I just don't get it.
Personally, I think there should be a minimum to be paid regardless of the job that is posted so that everyone is in the same boat, not well you have the time but this other guy is going to work for 1000 a month less so were hiring him.
End of rant.
For myself I love my job and even though the pay sucks a@@ I would not give it up one bit.
However, when do we all say as pilots, enough, is enough.
Everyone is bitching about it, yet noone person(myself included) has steppped up to do anything about it. How can we say I want to work for you but your going to pay me a good wage, and know that the next guy will do the same thing.
I think that this is the only industry that is around the we spend 40K on schooling and will stab everyone else in the back to get a job even if it takes working for free, just to get in the industry, I just don't get it.
Personally, I think there should be a minimum to be paid regardless of the job that is posted so that everyone is in the same boat, not well you have the time but this other guy is going to work for 1000 a month less so were hiring him.
End of rant.
Distorting the free market (ie forming a cartel to control the supply of pilots, and drive up the commodity price) must be done with great care to avoid creating more harm than good. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all.
Unfortunately you usually get idiots like BUZZ running the union show, who ape up for the cameras, and with their grade 7 educations, think that if some is good, more must be better.
Success for BUZZ is when he drives up wages to artificially high that the company is forced to shut down - it cannot compete in a free market with inflated labor costs.
So, the company relocates offshore and the unskilled Canadian laborers have no jobs at all. This is defined as success for BUZZ - when the hated employers are driven away, and the workers are all laid off.
Believe it or not, the workers and the company have a common goal - they are not enemies, as union leaders would have us naively believe.
Unfortunately you usually get idiots like BUZZ running the union show, who ape up for the cameras, and with their grade 7 educations, think that if some is good, more must be better.
Success for BUZZ is when he drives up wages to artificially high that the company is forced to shut down - it cannot compete in a free market with inflated labor costs.
So, the company relocates offshore and the unskilled Canadian laborers have no jobs at all. This is defined as success for BUZZ - when the hated employers are driven away, and the workers are all laid off.
Believe it or not, the workers and the company have a common goal - they are not enemies, as union leaders would have us naively believe.
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Northern Girl
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jj - that's ok the way you feel doesn't bother me in the least. You see this is the way I feel not you, thank goodness for that. I WOULD just like to say that I mentioned only that money was not my DRIVING force and not that I would fly for free. Don't please read between the lines on an innocent post in which I was simply sharing my love of flying with you all??!!
Capt asked -why did you get into it? Think way back to the good times when you thought it was a good idea to be a pilot?
Anyone else actually care to respond to the question and share how they got into flying etc NOT how bitter you are about it now??......................................anyone...............................????
Capt asked -why did you get into it? Think way back to the good times when you thought it was a good idea to be a pilot?
Anyone else actually care to respond to the question and share how they got into flying etc NOT how bitter you are about it now??......................................anyone...............................????
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Driving Rain
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Believe it or not, the workers and the company have a common goal - they are not enemies, as union leaders would have us naively believe.[/quote]
Another anti-union rant. Whenever someone wants to bitch about wages they pull out the old...... unions are the problem routine. Unions represent only 13% of Canadian workers and less than 10% US workers yet they're still the whipping boy by the uninformed.
I'm in a union and they've provided me and my fellow pilots with legal representation in our battle to increase wages and get better working conditions from my employer. Simply put, if it were left to the best intentions of management I'd be out of aviation and doing something else for a living a long time ago.
Blaming Buzz Hargrove because Company A moved off shore to cheap labour is very myopic my friend. Company A moved because their product isn't worth what they're asking for it and people aren't buying it so they have to lower the price. Remember, it's a free market economy and the market determines what something is worth, not Buzz Hargrove. All Buzz is trying to do is get a living wage for the people he represents.
God I hated it when I wasn't in a union, getting treated like a boy scout... "we'll pay you this much but don't tell the other pilots" routine is old and very very stale. Sound familiar?
I got into aviation because my dad was in the biz as an engineer. We talked aviation for as long as I can remember. I love what I'm doing but I have a family to consider and that means getting all I can get while the gettings good.
Another anti-union rant. Whenever someone wants to bitch about wages they pull out the old...... unions are the problem routine. Unions represent only 13% of Canadian workers and less than 10% US workers yet they're still the whipping boy by the uninformed.
I'm in a union and they've provided me and my fellow pilots with legal representation in our battle to increase wages and get better working conditions from my employer. Simply put, if it were left to the best intentions of management I'd be out of aviation and doing something else for a living a long time ago.
Blaming Buzz Hargrove because Company A moved off shore to cheap labour is very myopic my friend. Company A moved because their product isn't worth what they're asking for it and people aren't buying it so they have to lower the price. Remember, it's a free market economy and the market determines what something is worth, not Buzz Hargrove. All Buzz is trying to do is get a living wage for the people he represents.
God I hated it when I wasn't in a union, getting treated like a boy scout... "we'll pay you this much but don't tell the other pilots" routine is old and very very stale. Sound familiar?
I got into aviation because my dad was in the biz as an engineer. We talked aviation for as long as I can remember. I love what I'm doing but I have a family to consider and that means getting all I can get while the gettings good.
To the administrator:
I request that a permanent forum be established in "employment" where members could state their position (Capt., F/O, Ramp, etc) salary and benefits, work conditions(ie loading own aircraft, hard IFR most of the time etc) and flight times, as well as their aircraft flown and geographic location.
Said forum would have only values and information, not rants.
It would serve as a reference for pilots seeking employment or comparing their salaries with others so employed.
Other aviation sites have this item. I believe that it would be of benefit to our members in Canada and abroad.
There have been threads along this line already posted here. The threads get lost however over time thus indicating the need for a more permanent solution.
If this is not the appropriate area to request this, would some member please forward my request to the correct place.
Thank you
TJ ( Late of Winnipeg, now pounding back the brewskys in Brazil)
I request that a permanent forum be established in "employment" where members could state their position (Capt., F/O, Ramp, etc) salary and benefits, work conditions(ie loading own aircraft, hard IFR most of the time etc) and flight times, as well as their aircraft flown and geographic location.
Said forum would have only values and information, not rants.
It would serve as a reference for pilots seeking employment or comparing their salaries with others so employed.
Other aviation sites have this item. I believe that it would be of benefit to our members in Canada and abroad.
There have been threads along this line already posted here. The threads get lost however over time thus indicating the need for a more permanent solution.
If this is not the appropriate area to request this, would some member please forward my request to the correct place.
Thank you
TJ ( Late of Winnipeg, now pounding back the brewskys in Brazil)
Money obviously isn't everything but it controls a lot of things around us. I guess in an ironic way the fact that we get paid so poorly shows just how great our job actually is (for the most part). We'll accept crappy pay to do our job because really it's not about the money (I'm not saying everyone does). Personally I'll be happy when my flying job allows me to pay the bills and live comfortably. I don't need a Ferrari or a mansion (although I wouldn't complain). All I want is a decent comfortable living, and the job of my dreams......is that too much to ask? 
Some day I hope not! Doesn't matter if it's the job of your dreams anyone in any career should be at least be able to pay the bills, and more.
Some day I hope not! Doesn't matter if it's the job of your dreams anyone in any career should be at least be able to pay the bills, and more.
I'm into flying because that's all I ever knew growing-up because I heard the conversations over the supper table as a result of the family being in it for eons. Suffice it to say, that I was handling the controls long before I was legally able to do so. I am educated enough that I could do other things if I so chose to......but can find no other position that compares. I make more that $45,000/yr and less than $110,000/yr and am as happy "as a clam". It took almost 40 years to get there and everyday is not a "walk in the park" either, but I know of no friends that have a job where everyday is great either. I'm also lucky enough that I don't suffer from A.I.D.S (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome) and considering the time I've spent away from home, I wouldn't have traded places with my woman for nothing.
I'll never be paid what I believe I'm worth and I doubt few others will be either. Being "screwed" in this business is not new and "crappy" owners and operators aren't new either....and they aren't going to disappear either. Yes, it costs a lot to get into this business and get "rolling"...... it sure does nowadays. Check back in 20 years and you'll think today's costs were a sale. Don't believe that? My PL cost me $350, of which he government gave back $100; the CPL.....$1,400: IFR.....courtesy of the US Army and 2 tours in 'Nam'(civilian cost..$2000 "tops"). Try forking out those bucks when the average "take-home" paycheque is $3000/yr before taxes. Those are early 60's prices and you can see what I think of today's costs from that. The same will apply to you 20-30 years from now. Using the same rate of inflation, many children of those on this board will only be able to "window-shop" if they wish to join us in our "moaning".
Not wishing here to put anyone "down" because we all have our own stories about getting and keeping that first good position, but just wanted to introduce a "touch of realism" about the fact that nothing in this business is REALLY new at all......and my father could repeat the same about his days in this business eons before me.
I'll never be paid what I believe I'm worth and I doubt few others will be either. Being "screwed" in this business is not new and "crappy" owners and operators aren't new either....and they aren't going to disappear either. Yes, it costs a lot to get into this business and get "rolling"...... it sure does nowadays. Check back in 20 years and you'll think today's costs were a sale. Don't believe that? My PL cost me $350, of which he government gave back $100; the CPL.....$1,400: IFR.....courtesy of the US Army and 2 tours in 'Nam'(civilian cost..$2000 "tops"). Try forking out those bucks when the average "take-home" paycheque is $3000/yr before taxes. Those are early 60's prices and you can see what I think of today's costs from that. The same will apply to you 20-30 years from now. Using the same rate of inflation, many children of those on this board will only be able to "window-shop" if they wish to join us in our "moaning".
Not wishing here to put anyone "down" because we all have our own stories about getting and keeping that first good position, but just wanted to introduce a "touch of realism" about the fact that nothing in this business is REALLY new at all......and my father could repeat the same about his days in this business eons before me.
