Getting back into flying after 6yrs, need advice

[Mrryan]

I am at a crossroads in my life now and need some help so that I make the right decision. Here is a somewhat brief run down of where I can been and where I'm at now.

Presently life goes like this, I'm 28, married, own my own house, have no kids, but 2 dogs, life is stable, job is secure, but recently after years of denial I came to the conclusion that I absolutely HATE my job, I hate the business and need to get out before it eats away at my home life and makes me a miserable and unsuccessfull person. I'm an insurance broker and have been doing this for 4years now, sales is not my thing, I always knew it was not my thing, but refused to accept that and just kept trying to like it.

Rewind back in time (2001-2003), I was a C180 float pilot working at a small air tours operator during the summer while still living at home with mom and dad, I loved the job and while living at home I would still survive off the miniscule pay which made life easy. 2 summers later that operation shut down and I was having to look elsewhere for work, I got a job the summer later, but at the time I lost interest in flying, 9/11 had just happened so the industry was in some turmoil and in general I realized that in aviation you have to sacrifice a lot to get those all important hours, being 23, inexperienced with life and having loads of debt I did not want to have to deal with that kind of sacrifice, so I walked away from this job. As I get older I realize just how immature I was at the time when I made that decision, but at the time it was the right thing to do. It was 1yr later that I landed this job as an insurance broker and since then have found myself dredding my job.

There is where I am and where I have been, I am coming back to aviation as I've always had a keen interest in it, I hear the big plane fly by and my head is pointed up looking for it, this past winter I went to Cuba with the wife and while at Pearson, seeing, hearing and smelling the planes put a smile on my face, takeoff and landing I knew what was happening and I was explaining this to my wife, I was like a kid in a candy store it was great. I had a certainly amount of jealously and regret seeing the pilots.

My wife and I have talked about me changing careers and she is more than willing to make big changes in life to accommodate that like selling our house and moving into an apartment, but my wife is a career woman in human resources, she needs to have a good job for herself and is not willing to sacrifice her job for me which I respect. We plan to move to Toronto anyways for my wife as there are more jobs for her out there so that would be the hub I would have to work from.

Flying time wise I have around 500TT, 250 on floats, 300 or so PIC, no IFR or multi, but its been since Aug 2002 that I last flew. I know I need to get some recurrent training before my CPL ticket is valid again and that I can do, maybe do a commerical ground school to remember everything again since a lot of it I don't remember. That I can do, but what I need to know is what is the industry like? what obstacles might I face? what job opportunities would be out there for me? I am more than willing to get my instructors rating to instruct for a couple years.

Any input, advice, anything will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[. .]

I'd say it would be pretty easy to find an instructing job if you were willing to get an instructor rating. All the schools in Toronto are hurting for Instructors, after a year or two there you'd have some options. The industry has been fantastic for the last 3 years, but is showing some very clear signs of slowing down now. With that in mind, you may end up stuck instructing for more than a year or two. It's all about connections though, and even in slow times some instructors network with the right people and have no problem staying in the GTA flying. Good luck with whatever you chose, it's definitely not an easy decision.

[Hedley]

Do whatever makes you happy.

Legally, you need to do a (cat one) medical, and
if you have not logged any PIC for 5 years, you
will need to go to an FTU and write the PSTAR
and do a flight review with an instructor, on all
of the items on the commercial flight test, and
you're supposed to be able to do them within
the tolerances specified here:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... 2/menu.htm

I'm pretty sure you will do 5 takeoffs and
landings with your instructor, so when the
flight review is signed off in your logbook,
you are ok to carry pax during the day.

Good luck! It can be a bit hard to find
a class 1 instructor these days, for getting
your class 4 instructor rating, depending
upon where you are.

[parallel60]

Hey,
Just read through you post. Its great that you want to get back into flying!
Here's my opinion and before I start I have 3300TT AA Turbine Capt and I've interviewed with Cathay and I'm interviewing soon for another airline.

Right now I'm 26 and I enjoy my job and the location I'm at. I'm an hour from my hometown and enjoy going to work 95% of the time. Some days can keep you up at nights, believe me!!! LOL But for the most part, I am FINALLY happy with my current JOB situation and location.

Now on the other side of that coin, to be honest, I am completely ashamed of how much I've sacrificed for the job to get to this position. What I mean by that is moving constantly, missing important family and friend events and the loss of two incredible girlfriends because of my sacrifice and putting them low on the priority list.

I go to work to enjoy my job, make money, and have a life outside of work. If I'm making really good money one day, loving my job but am alone, it will be because of some bad prioritizing along the way and this will all be for nothing!!!!!

Now, you said that you are married(happily I'm sure) so in my opinion...don't for a second...do anything that is going to jeopardize what you two have together. Because I would rather be with someone great and work a job that is just a job then work a job that is amazing and be alone!!

The industry is in good shape right now with an uncertain future so I bet you could get a flying job as soon as you are all current again. But the pay is low to begin with, it may require a move, you may have to spend time away from home and it takes a while to be making a livable wage, are you prepared for that?

Now picture a scale..... put your job/career on one side and your life outside work(spouse/lifestyle, plans for the future) on the other side and make sure they balance out.

When I first started out, getting a flying job was all I ever wanted, but now, I give aviation what it gives me, no more no less. Some people will tell you that you need to look after number one and to go for it if its what you love, well...yes, to a certain point, that point you will have to determine yourself and how much you sacrifice to get to that point will encapsulate you.

Work hard, play harder!

If you have any questions or want me to elaborate on my own high's and bad beats ask away, I would be glad to share.

[Mrryan]

Its good to know there are some instructing jobs out there, not my preferred type of flying, but works for me.

parallel60, I hear what you are saying. I think your situation is what I could have been had I not quit flying, a good part of my decision was quitting for a girlfriend, but it worked out well as I ended up marrying her just last summer and we are very happy together. For me I put my personal life first and took whatever good paying job I could get, but that only works for so long, eventually you have everything great to go home too, but working just to see Friday at 5. Whatever decision I make it will for sure have to have a good balance of home and work, my wife is very supportive, but agrees we still need to have a comfortable life together meaning I can't be gone up north flying floats for 4-5months a year to come home to no work or having to live in a ghetto living arrangement just to make ends meet, but I'm confident that won't happen, wife makes good money so even me making $15-20K a year for 2-3years is possible, down side is that we won't be able to own a house let alone rent a place as big as our current house, but we are cool with that.
Another concern is getting the right experience, if I instruct for 2yrs, get 1500TT, but no multi-ifr where is that really going to get me, that was one thing that always bothered me about this industry, lots of hours, but not the right kind of hours...is that something I should be concerned about?

[sez]

Well, It's a hard decision...but first of all ask yourself that if you keep working, no matter how much you're paid, will you be satisfied?... and also will you still be complaining about everything maybe including your private life?...
I'm also in Sales business, I'm workng at an multinatonal Oil Company as a Territory Manager and it's a quite well paid Job; but not in Canada...After I got my Permanent Residence, I've decided to follow my passion and applied to Confederation College...(I'm 31 by the way ) I guess I've taken a high risk and this really gives me a fright...but fairly I can say that after I got accepted to Confed, I'm a much much more easygiong man...

[Mrryan]

Well, It's a hard decision...but first of all ask yourself that if you keep working, no matter how much you're paid, will you be satisfied?... and also will you still be complaining about everything maybe including your private life?...I'm also in Sales business, I'm workng at an multinatonal Oil Company as a Territory Manager and it's a quite well paid Job; but not in Canada...After I got my Permanent Residence, I've decided to follow my passion and applied to Confederation College...(I'm 31 by the way ) I guess I've taken a high risk and this really gives me a fright...but fairly I can say that after I got accepted to Confed, I'm a much much more easygiong man...

I can tell you they can pay me $100k which is something I can make if I was a good broker and I will still not be happy, I get no satisfaction out of this job. This job has killed my motivation, my attitude about many things is rather pessimistic and I have become the biggest procrasinator at work since I just don't care anymore. Generally it is hurting my outlook on life and it needs to stop as soon as we can financially take this plunge. One problem is that my wife and i bought this house last November as a fixer-upper and its been way more work than we expected, it still needs lots of work to get it to the point of being able to sell it for the price we need so that we can pay off debts, if it wasn't for that and we were just renting I would be ready to give my 2 week notice anyday.

[flyincanuck]

Parallel60 - one of the most honest and valuable posts i've seen on av in a while.

[BTD]

if I instruct for 2yrs, get 1500TT, but no multi-ifr where is that really going to get me, that was one thing that always bothered me about this industry, lots of hours, but not the right kind of hours...is that something I should be concerned about?

You do need to find a type of flying you will be happy with and enjoy. The only problem with that type of thinking is it may sway you away from a perfectly good opportunity to build your experience. If your goal is to become an airline pilot (I assume because of how you talked about your trip to Pearson) very few entry level jobs give you experience that relates directly to that type of job. When was the last time (in Canada) a 250 hr pilot had to be concerned about programming an FMC, managing different autopilot modes, etc, oh and pushing the flight attendant button

The truth is each entry level job requires skills and develops experience, some of it relevant to your next goals and some of it not, whether instructing, float flying, pipeline patrol etc.

When your resume comes across the desk, the Total Time numbers will stick out among a few other things. The bigger that number the better (from a resume point of view). Once your are called in for an interview, the job is yours to lose and that number means squat.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

BTD

[Highflyinpilot]

Not trying to be the downer of the litter but I would look at it from the other side, Sure right now it sounds good to get rid of the house and move into a small apartment, sure your wife hasnt a problem with it, But think about in a year from now, or 2 years from now if you still have to be living in that little apartment, will you still be happy, will your wife still be happy.

It`s like going to buy a brand new truck or car, right now ya I dont mind a payment of 800$ a month because it`s new, but in 2 years from now I wont be liking the 800$ payment for this vehicle I bought 2 years ago because it`s not new anymore. Just something to think about.

I have been in the same situation as you, I had a choice to either go flying and work for buttons or go into a trade, I chose the trade, now i feel comfortable, It`s not exactly what I wanted(I wanted to fly) but im happy enough to do it a long time, make decent money, and not have to move all over the place in order to land that major gig.

But again if it`s what you really want then have at it. What matters is what makes you happy. Youve got a really big decision to make(which I`ve already faced, and seem to have chosen the right one for my situation)


Good luck

[LegoMan]

I think it all depends on what you want. There are operators out there that will hire you right seat on a turbine with your hours if you do your multi-ifr. However with the need of instructors you will probably get to be home more and may even make more money instructing if you find the right school. Either way its going to take some time and $ to get you back in the game. If this is what you want then you should do it because there is nothing worse then living with regret.

Good luck!

[sez]

Mrryan,

since this is the way it is..anyhow you'll get fired soon...
but things are easier for me as I'm not married...

maybe you can consider instructing on weekends while keeping your present job...

I wish you the best with your desicion...

[just curious]

MrRyan,

What you do now will determine where you are this time next year. There hasn't been a week in the past 2 months when there hasn't been a dozen ads for instructors. One place was looking for commercial drivers who wanted to become instructors.

You flew in the bush. Where, in a perfect world would you want to be next year, and five years from now? Instructing will get you a fair bit of time fairly fast. But wherever you were flying the Cessna, phone in the general vicinity. Chances are that someone is looking. You may not have flown the area recently, but an old hand always seems to be welcomed back. Yout time and an IFR puts you in the running for a copilot job, but the more time you walk in with the better deal you can make.

[Mrryan]

YOu guys have given me a few things to think more about.

A few more things I would like to know about is where do you guys see the industry going in the next 3-5yrs? my concern is a slow down.
Will limiting myself to the GTA for at least the next say 5yrs make if difficult to move up? my ultimate goal would be airlines.
Thinking of my financial future after say 2yrs instructing with 1500TT, no multi or ifr what kind of income can I expect? Will just have instructing hours be detrimental to landing that next big job?

[Highflyinpilot]

If the conditions stay the way they are I dont think 1500tt instructing will be detrimental, however if the industry does take a hit then i would say ya it would probably be quite detrimental, as there would be a whole bunch lined up for them ifr gigs with ifr time, It's very hard to say as the industry is very hard to predict.

Ah,Life`s big decisions, gotta love em

[Mrryan]

Would it be safe to say...

Instructing:
-more jobs
-decent income
-quick to gain time

F/O ticket w/MIFR:
-less jobs
-lower income
-slower to gain time
-better experience for the long run

[Highflyinpilot]

Im ot in the industry anymore, but I would say

-Instructing, yes more jobs
-IFR lower income, I dont think i would say lower, at par to start(if your at a busy school, constantly flying)
-IFR better experience in the long run- I'd say yes if airlines is what you want


Now that's just the concensus that I get from lurking around here. So plese someone that's active in the industry please chime in and correct me if im wrong.

[just curious]

Instruct at a place that's insanely busy, or a busy float operator for a year or so, so that your ATPL is going to be realtively painless, the get going on a co-pilot job.
If you're instructing, make it at a place that will give you a discount on the IFR and work on it after.

[the goal is soul]

Something you might consider is dispatching.

Certainly it's not flying, but I found it to be rewarding and fun. There seems to be a demand for operations-oriented people; I guess these days, the guys who are going to fly are off flying, and someone who can understand what goes on out in the field, someone who 'gets' aviation becomes much more valuable to the organization.

I was finishing university, assuming I'd be a pilot at some point, and watched some friends get dragged through the mud by the industry around that time, before things started to open up again. I wasn't sure that i was willing to make those sacrifices in my life. I got into dispatch/operations and really enjoyed it. The money wasn't bad, although it seems to plateau in the mid 40K range.

I'll concede that I've decided to make a go at the flying career though. As much as I enjoyed the work, I grew a little restless doing all the paperwork, and then seeing flyincanuck come back with pics of the pyramids, the eiffel tower, that indoor ski hill in Dubai...

It was less volatile that the flying side...I was close enough that I was getting my aviation fix, but maybe too close to NOT be in the jet. I enjoyed it though, and maybe one day I'll end up back in that role.

Just wanted to offer that perspective. Good luck, whatever you choose - good for you for not settling for less.

[Mrryan]

I appreciate all the different points of view here, I've had several PM's offering support and some offerring some true insite on what I getting myself into so I'd like to hear more on I suppose what the industry is like, are most operators slave drivers like I keep hearing? do most operators have SOP's? as in ceiling/visibility/wind limits? the last place I got a job with up north had no such thing, part of the reason why I left that job....being told 1/2mile visibility VFR is still good scared me.
Any good and bad I would like to hear.

[Meatservo]

I'm sorry, I got bored and didn't read all the replies here. Do you have a multi/IFR? If you like flying floats why not try being a twin otter copilot? The twin otter copilots where I work like to complain about their poor pay but I can tell you they make more than I did when I flew a 185; they make about as much as I did flying a beaver... back then I thought I had hit the big time.

Personally, I love flying. You need to find a KIND of flying you feel like you are particularly good at or that you find rewarding. These days you can progress quite quickly. It makes me sad to watch people younger than me involved in the relentless march toward the airlines, trying to get from one aircraft to the next and into a left seat and then onto bigger and bigger planes within the first five years of their careers without truly learning to master anything. I guess I don't really blame them but I find it takes something away from the experience. I see flying well as an art. I'm just coasting along on charm but I know some real artists.

While I am discussing my opinions I want to mention my opinion on the subject of insurance. Insurance is legally sanctioned extortion. These companies harvest money and actually try as hard as they can to provide absolutely nothing in return. Absolutely the best deal a person can get in dealing with an insurance company is to throw money down the toilet year after year without having to actually talk to insurance agents. Every third commercial on tv is some asshole trying to peddle some new type of insurance scam they've managed to cook up. If you're a nice guy, you probably don't like your job because you can feel your soul being sucked out by the monsters you work for. They brainwash their employees using flowery touchy-feely talk about "protection" and "peace of mind", while they actively seek loopholes in their contracts in order to bilk honest people. I know some people rip off the insurance companies, and they need to protect themselves. I know insurance is a "necessary evil". I'm just trying to point out why being a pilot might make you hate yourself less than being an insurance guy.

Then, you need to talk to your wife. Big Time. You need to let her know that you are considering a career that may result in you guys having to seriously consider moving somewhere you never even thought of living before. Seriously, you can get a good job in HR just about anywhere. She might wind up being the primary income-source for a while. If she is absolutely dead-set against moving at all for the sake of your career then you have a condition in your career plans that you need to accept. I suppose you already do accept it. Anyway, her attitude toward this will depend on whether or not she's the kind of person that can respect you for doing something you love rather than something that pays the most. I actually don't have any advice for you here. I have tricked my wife into thinking my career is respectable and exciting, even though she is also a professional and will someday soon be making a lot more money than I do.

Just one more thing if you're still reading this, the world is full of those mickey-mouse fringe operators who are so close to going tits-up that they can't afford to lose a flight to bad weather or competition with another company whose "magic" beaver can haul 500 lb more than anyone else's. These guys deserve to be run out of business. Unfortunately, most of them own 185s. You need to do some discrete sniffing around before you take a job to see if the way this guy does business is compatible with your comfort level. There are plenty of decent people out there who own planes, sometimes they take a bit of work to locate.

Good luck man.

[xsbank]

I don't think its worth the sacrifice. Sounds to me that if you quit to fly, you will be divorced in 3 - 5 years. 10 years from now you'll be right seat in a (something), will be just emerging from the latest recession, you've never seen your kid's school play or a soccer game, your girl-friend doesn't get much time off from her job working the bar and you think you might over-lap a day off sometime in June... Your wife has re-married to a successful lawyer and they have a waterfront house on the lake.

Being a pilot is a very solitary, capricious and selfish profession and it pays garbage for, oh, 20 years.

I think you should speak to a counsellor and find out what is REALLY wrong with your life. I don't think its your job.

Dr. Xs. has left the building.

[Mrryan]

You sound a little bitter xsbank. I totally agree with you saying its a solitary, selfish and an unpredictible profession and the pay sucks until you get with a mainline carrier, that there is what I'm trying to work out. The more posts I read here the better picture I am able to paint as to what I'm up against and its starting to look like its a hard road, which I knew. But is it going to be harder than me dropping everything to go to school for 4yrs to get a degree in something I have yet to find to get out of school and be making $30-40k and be 33yrs old.
xsbank I can assure you its my job that is the problem in my life, everything else is great, ok this money pit of a house has caused some stress, but that I am slowly taking care of, my job offers 0 fullfillment and bores me to death that is the problem, I need to find something that can give me at least a resonable amount of passion and satisfaction, if its not in piloting then I need to find what else I can do. And on that note I am going to speak with a career counsellor tonight after work.

[Cat Driver]

do most operators have SOP's? as in ceiling/visibility/wind limits? the last place I got a job with up north had no such thing,

You are the only one who controls these limits.

[xsbank]

Actually, not bitter at all about flying - I've been doing it long enough to realize that its just not a panacea. I never thought that flying back and forth in a 'Bus is the answer, and I guarantee you that if you had to do it for $100,000/year, tops, that nobody would do it. I don't know anybody who still does it who actually likes it, but all who do it like the pay, the time off and the pension. At $100,000 a year, I bet you are making more than probably 2/3rds of the pilot population will ever make, not to mention the bloodshed in the looming recession.

Did I mention that I thought that if you quit before, when you were in the middle of arguably the most exciting part of your aviation career, that I don't think you are cut out for it? I do think your priorities are correct, however.

I have friends in the insurance business too, but they are in safety, accident investigation and forensics. There are 'good' parts of insurance, too.