Proceedures for a safe flight

[Spokes]

Begin rant....


Why is it that after awhile some pilots feel that all those VFR proceedures they were taught to conduct a safe flight are not nessecary, or maybe that they are too good to have to follow them? This is aimed at the bonehead that tried to run into me today at a small BC uncontrolled (class G airspace) airfield. You know who you are. Your ident was C-**FI.

The things you were taught (should have been) were there for a reason. They are published in the AIM for a reason. I know some here think the AIM is optional, and you can do whatever you want, but sticking to these procedures will go a long way to the making of a safe flight.

1st, report your position using published reference points. If you rely on "local knowledge" for your reporting, your report is useless. So there I was, having anounced my takeoff, just adding power for my roll down rw 29 (into wind), when I hear "this is C172 C**FI at 4 mile point estimating the field in 5 minutes", thinking to myself "where the heck is 4 mile point?"

This particular rw29 had some tall trees at the end, and thus I kept a best angle climb on for a bit. Once cleared I lowered the nose, and having had no real forward vis for awhile, started a bit of a zig zag climb. It was clear of to the left so I angled that way.

Luck for me! About a half a minute later, the afor-mentioned bonehead anounced final for 11. Join overhead! Check the wind! check for traffic! Its not hard. Why is it that after working so hard to learn fly a plane do some pilots work so foolishly to try and shorten the experience.

"Hey, I just took off on 29" And querying about non-published reporting points, the afor-mentioned bonehead (and beleive me I was using stronger language at the time) laughed it off with a "I guess thats local knowledge" excuse, followed by a "oh. There you are"

so...

Use published reporting point references! Otherwise everything you have said is useless. Your not just talking to hear your voice.

Join overhead! Check the wind. Today it was not too strong, and your tail-wind landing probably would not have been a problem. But you did not know that. I'm sure anyone who was say tried to land downwind in a, say navaho, at say Powel river might have regretted there decision to not check the wind.

...end rant...thanks for your patience.

[CloudCover]

Blah blah blah. Nobody cares. If you want to vent, get married.

[square]

Just ask him where he is in relation to the field, and tell him where you are, and how to avoid. Traffic seperation is pretty darned easy if you just talk.

[5400AirportRdSouth]

I agree with Square, once you are within range of an uncontrolled a/d and you are making / listening to position reports, just talk - don't worry about sounding cool or using " standard phraseology ", just talk. If its just the two of you, and you're not tying up the freq unnecessarily, I really wouldn't sweat it.

Hey **FI, where the heck is 4 mile point?

Really? ok, well, I was going to cross midfield / join overhead and check the wind.

No, thats ok, I'm going to check the wind, let me know when you're clear and I'll plan on...blah blah blah.


Frankly, old Elmer trying to blow the dust off his 150 thats been in the barn all winter, and the Pasco guy inbound, could care less how you sound on the radio, or having to listen to a little chatter that isn't perfect "radio-work", in the interests of safety.

Not to be a jerk, I think your rant has merit.

So with all due respect, if it was me, and I didn't know where the guy was who reporting inbound to the same field as me, because his position report was goofy, ( or even if it was a published point and I hadn't looked it up, memorized it, or could be bothered to look at the map/CFS and find it ) I would have asked him straight off if there was any doubt.

If I'm on the field making ready to depart, I might also be inclined to make my own call to let the inbound guy know that I'm there and what my plan is as well.

Even if I'm sitting in my plane with the engine off and furiously thumbing through the CFS to find " The Big Ole Water Tower Thingy " on the VFR procedures map, I might tell inbound traffic " ABC, sitting at the terminal, just starting up, winds are favouring 29, we'll let you know when we're on the move "

To blast off / continue inbound, when there is other traffic in close proximity, that you really don't know where they are...in my book, thats about equal to making position reports with obscure/inaccurate positions.

[Spokes]

Hmmm, I have never aborted a t/o because I heard a px report, and did not know that location. Are you saying that this is what I should have done?

As for traffic deconfliction, to all that advised that I just talk to the guy, well duh! I am not a complete idiot. I just do not feel that a long converstion is something I want to get in when I have just released the brakes and am powering up for t/o.

I do not try to "sound cool" on the radio, whatever that is. In fact I would say that Is what the other guy was shooting for.

In any case, Had this guy simply done things they way they should be done, none of this would have happened.

[Strega]

spokes,

I know what happened,

When you made your call, I bet you didnt say "conflicting traffic please advise"

Sounds like the other spamcan driver is just a weekend warrior flyer... I wouldnt get too riled up, but I agree, they can sometimes cause mass caos!

S

[North Shore]

Deconfliction?? WTF? Ohhhh.. AVOIDANCE I get it..

Ok, you were busy on the roll, fair enough, but as soon as you were airborne, why weren't you on the radio again, asking buddy to clarify his position to your satisfaction? Collision avoidance is your job, because it's your ass in the plane. If someone else can't be bothered to give a proper position report, then that sucks - but just because they were vague, doesn't mean that you have to be..

[xsbank]

IPTAINE

Ident, position, time, altitude, IFR/VFR, next reporting point, ETA. Adjust as required.

[GilletteNorth]

I have to agree with North Shore:

as soon as you were airborne, why weren't you on the radio again, asking buddy to clarify his position to your satisfaction?

"Traffic inbound to XXXX airport this is XXXX, just airborne off runway 29 westbound climbing to XXXX, what is your position?"

Learn to 'fly' and chew gum at the same time.

[Spokes]

Deconfliction?? WTF? Ohhhh.. AVOIDANCE I get it..

Ok, you were busy on the roll, fair enough, but as soon as you were airborne, why weren't you on the radio again, asking buddy to clarify his position to your satisfaction? Collision avoidance is your job, because it's your ass in the plane. If someone else can't be bothered to give a proper position report, then that sucks - but just because they were vague, doesn't mean that you have to be..

Yes, your right. I should have got on him about where he was at. To be honest though he surprised me. I thought I had quite a bit more time. From his first call from the mysterious position, to his call on final was surprisingly (to me) short. I wasn't more than 4-500 agl when he called final. In addition, I was expecting this pilot to join overhead as per the AIM. I had just called t/o on 29, and did not see him to my left joining for the downwind. I certainly was not expecting him to come straight in for a down wind landing.

Strega: lol, yup, that nails it. I will now always say that

[Turkey]

I know this wasn't the case THIS TIME, but consider this: most (ALL) pilots key the mic, speak, and assume that the other guy heard them. What if he didn't? What if he's not recieving? What if you're not actually transmitting? The greatest "departing 29" radio call in the world doesn't mean anything if your transmitter just broke. Again, not the case this time, and not excusing the other guy for not following suggested circuit joining and radio procedures. But what if you change your own way of doing things? Assume that he didn't hear your departing call. Would you have handled the situation any differently? It's your life to save...

[200hr Wonder]

I like to operate under the premise at an uncontrolled airport that everyone else is a complete and udder n00b ass hat who is lost and has about as much intelligence as my belly button lint on a good day. If you assume that and operate that way when it all works out for the better guess what sweet. Bottom line is there is only one person who is looking out for you and that is you when uncontrolled.

Now it is always nice and great that people do it right and they should. Spokes you have every right to be annoyed but it is a fact that people are not going to do it right so ask your self what can you do to insulate against that?

[Spokes]

No, not much I would have done different. As I said, Because of my initial limited forward visibility after t/o, I started a zig-zaging climb out. This is what I credit myself with making a dangerous situation less dangerous.

I don't need a lecture on my responsibilities, and what I can do to save my skin. I know all these things, and practice them regularily. This includes using published reporting points, and proper circuit joining proceedures. All I ask is that others do the same. Geez, lumping this all on me is the moral equivelant of blaming a woman for being raped because her dress was too short.

I will say it one more time: Use published reporting points (or a distance direction reference to one), use proper circuit joining proceedures. Its not hard, does not cost anything and it is safer for all. Is that out of line?

This other guy was not trying to accomplish anything other than sound kool on the radio. In this case at what could have been, but for my decision to zig-zag my departure, to the peril of us both.

[E B]

In C**FI's defence: The only 'shall' I can find about uncontrolled airport ops is the left hand circuit unless otherwise stated, all the other procedures say 'should' therefore you don't necessarily have to do them. You will find that everywhere you go will be airports with certain local quirks be it pilots or whatever, that you will have to adapt to.

You say that you were just adding power so I can't imagine you were moving very quick, why didn't you just stop if you didn't like it, or since you decided to continue, throw out a "where is that?", I hope you're not too busy flying to avoid a conflict. You are the one in charge of that unit and if you are taking off while in doubt, maybe you should think about your decision making. You should also consider your own transmissions, how much time elapsed between your takeoff call and your actual takeoff? Did you call taxiing out as well or just taking off? Did you report on the airport freq and 26.7? Maybe the other guy was behind a hill and couldn't hear you.

If you had such a problem with it, you should have just landed and had a chat with the guy instead of slandering him on here, I guess this way is easier though.

[Cat Driver]

In C**FI's defence: The only 'shall' I can find about uncontrolled airport ops is the left hand circuit unless otherwise stated, all the other procedures say 'should' therefore you don't necessarily have to do them.

[Spokes]

In C**FI's defence: The only 'shall' I can find about uncontrolled airport ops is the left hand circuit unless otherwise stated, all the other procedures say 'should' therefore you don't necessarily have to do them. You will find that everywhere you go will be airports with certain local quirks be it pilots or whatever, that you will have to adapt to.

You say that you were just adding power so I can't imagine you were moving very quick, why didn't you just stop if you didn't like it, or since you decided to continue, throw out a "where is that?", I hope you're not too busy flying to avoid a conflict. You are the one in charge of that unit and if you are taking off while in doubt, maybe you should think about your decision making. You should also consider your own transmissions, how much time elapsed between your takeoff call and your actual takeoff? Did you call taxiing out as well or just taking off? Did you report on the airport freq and 26.7? Maybe the other guy was behind a hill and couldn't hear you.

If you had such a problem with it, you should have just landed and had a chat with the guy instead of slandering him on here, I guess this way is easier though.

In my books, "should" does not mean optional. As we all know, AIM is not like CARs in so far as enorcable regulations go. If I remember correctly, if the AIM says "shall", there is backup in the CARs to make it enforcable. If it says "should" there is not. But, and this is a big "but", it does mean you should do it, unless you have a good reason not to. As for pattern joining, as outlined by AIM, for an uncontrolled airfield with no advisory goes, the joining that is given in my view is the safest way to do it. 99.9% of pilots I have seen use this. Many times when I have seen someone not do so, trouble ensues. Navaho downwind landing at Powel River ring a bell?

As for deconflicting on the roll, well I must admit I never thought of that. Aborting for a traffic call? Hmmm I have never done that either. I would think though, that having just anounced t/o (and yes taxi etc) on one runway, it would be reasonable to assume someone would not shortly after drive for final in the opposite direction.

Lastly, the issue of slander. When someone does something unsafe, saying so is not slander. This guy was simply trying to sound "cool" on the radio.

Again, use published postions for radio calls. Its easy, safest, and there is no reason not to. Join on the method given in AIM. It to is easy, safest. The life you might save is your own. Thats about all I will say on this matter. I was a bit pissed after this happened, and thus my rant. It had been my hope that the person who did this whould come out and say: "hey, good point. I didn;t know that waht I was doing was unsafe. Maybe I should do it correctly". That is what a proffesional would do.

After asking around a bit, the next time I was at this field, I learned that this pilot had a bit of a reputation as something of a 'cowboy' who did foolish things around the airfield, and was best avoided.

[Cat Driver]

In my books, "should" does not mean optional. As we all know, AIM is not like CARs in so far as enorcable regulations go.

If I were flying into Courtney from Nanaimo early in the morning on a flat calm day and there was no traffic on the radio, and I announced my intentions to do a straight in is that poor airmanship?

Or am I supposed to fly overhead to confirm something I already know...there is zero wind.

[small penguin]

Arent straight in finals/base prohibited at an ATF? I thought it was only straight in downwind or overhead that was allowed. Or so I've been always instructed anyways..

[Cat Driver]

I actually don't know the answer in that I have not flown an airplane in Canadian airspace for many years.

When and if I ever fly in Canada again I will know the rules....now I have no real need to.

I was only asking a question because I was curious.

[small penguin]

I wasnt directing it towards you. As I recalled, straight ins (base and final) werent allowed, but there was a topic here a few months back about angry charter pilots who wanted to save time and fuel buy going straight in. Then the usual argument ensued but I cant remember what the actual answer was/is.

In the situation of the topic starter, the C-**FI aircraft could have been doing the same thing he did, but have been flying nordo. That could have severely changed the outcome of the situation.

[Hedley]

It simply blows my mind that there are so many pilots
flying that don't know what the rules are.

At an uncontrolled airport (ATF or MF) you can directly
join the downwind, the base leg, or the final. There is no
Canadian Aviation Regulations which says you cannot.

You can only be charged with contravening the Canadian
Aviation Regulations, so it would behoove you to learn
them, and learn them well.

The only applicable CAR is 602.96(3) which says that
if left traffic (the default, unless otherwise specified in
the CFS) then don't fly right traffic. And vice versa.

That's it.

Some boneheads call right traffic anyways. Don't
do that. Call your geographic position and say you
are going to join a STRAIGHT-IN FINAL, which is
legal. NOT a right base, which is not legal wrt
CAR 602.96(3) if left traffic is in effect.

Have any of you guys ever flown an instrument
approach? How on earth would you do so, if
you couldn't fly a straight-in final?!

Notwithstanding the above, I rarely see a
glider or helicopter ever fly the correct
pattern, and I have yet to see an SFOC
for either.

[small penguin]

*shrugs* on the few occasions where an airplane has joined straight in final at our airport (ATF), the pilot has always gotten a lecture from instructors or the CFI about having to join on downwind. Both this school and the school I got my PPL at always told me you have to join on downwind.

But I guess thanks for the clarification Hedley.

[Cat Driver]

At an uncontrolled airport (ATF or MF) you can directly
join the downwind, the base leg, or the final. There is no
Canadian Aviation Regulations which says you cannot.

That is what I thought, I was quite sure the CAR's were not changed since I last flew here.

*shrugs* on the few occasions where an airplane has joined straight in final at our airport (ATF), the pilot has always gotten a lecture from instructors or the CFI about having to join on downwind. Both this school and the school I got my PPL at always told me you have to join on downwind.

What does that tell you about the instructors at your airport?

[200hr Wonder]

At an uncontrolled airport (ATF or MF) you can directly
join the downwind, the base leg, or the final. There is no
Canadian Aviation Regulations which says you cannot.

That is what I thought, I was quite sure the CAR's were not changed since I last flew here.

*shrugs* on the few occasions where an airplane has joined straight in final at our airport (ATF), the pilot has always gotten a lecture from instructors or the CFI about having to join on downwind. Both this school and the school I got my PPL at always told me you have to join on downwind.

What does that tell you about the instructors at your airport?

Well Cat, I always get my students to do the full overhead deal 1. To get more familure and comfortable with them when joining from all directions and 2. To give them more time to observe the windsock, obstructions or any other hazards that they need to deal with at any given airport. Courtenay - Short Runway, Seaschelt the Gravel pit and rising terrain to the east, Squamish the winds, rising terrain. So yes as an instructor I tell my students and insist when I am in the A/C that we do the full over head procedure for the above reasons. On the other hand I also let them know that joining strait, base, down wind etc are acceptable to look out for A/C doing so. Once they are PPL and doing CPL stuff I forgo the above most of the time. However I know of a lot of places that insist on the full procedure and teach that anything else is verboten.

[Cat Driver]

200 hour....

this was what I was commenting on.

On the few occasions where an airplane has joined straight in final at our airport (ATF), the pilot has always gotten a lecture from instructors or the CFI about having to join on downwind

.

The instructors have no authority nor right in any way to lecture any pilot that is not their student if said pilot is operating their airplane within the regulations.

It is this kind of mindless behavior by some instructors that makes it difficult for those of us who understand the subject.

So what would you think if some pilot who was getting a lecture from this kind of moron just told him/her to go back to school and learn the subject correctly?