Fatal Floatplane Crash in PQ, May 26, 2008

[Doc]

"Something beneficial"? From an incomplete CADORS? Fatal injuries? Last time I looked, drowning would be/could be referred to as fatal? What's to be learned here? Apart from the obvious....don't crash? Are we calling folks "stupid" because the post was originated by "Widow"? I rather suspect so. Widow has brought us over 2000 posts. Some have been very beneficial. I don't feel that way about this one. If that makes me "stupid", so be it.

[Widow]

Drowning can be fatal, yes, but it is not an injury, or wound.

If the occupants were not incapacitated by the accident, why did they drown (if they did)? I think that bears discussing.

[Doc]

You're correct. When we know what killed them....in the meantime...there is very little to discuss.

[Widow]

When will we know what killed them? Or what caused the accident? We may never know, as this is a Class 5 Occurrence - and we don't have access to the TSB Aviation Safety Information System (ASIS) database.

Class 5 Occurrences (Data Collection)

Data pertaining to occurrences that do not meet the criteria of classes 1 through 4 will be recorded in suitable scope and detail for possible safety analysis, statistical reporting, or archival purposes.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/common/policies/occurrences.asp

[snoopy]

"...there is very little to discuss."

Well, I suppose that might be YOUR opinion, but you are not the sole person in the room Doc. Should the rest of us refrain from posting when what we have to say doesn't meet your pleasure? I might venture to point out that with almost 4300 posts to your credit, you certainly seem to think what you have to say is important - so much so that you seem to do a lot more talking than listening.

May I point out that this post is entitled: "Fatal Floatplane Crash in PQ, May 26, 2008" so if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic at hand, other than to argue that somebody else's point of view is unimportant, perhaps you should consider starting your own thread and speak your piece there. You are not being forced to read what you see here.

Back to the topic...

It would be interesting to know why the two were not able to exit the aircraft if they did indeed survive the accident. Did they survive the impact? Perhaps egress training would have changed the outcome. One of the many valuable things Brian mentions in his egress course is that people (understandably) tend to panic, and the Cessna door latches usually break off right away when people attempt to rip them off in the wrong direction. Then they really are trapped unless they have the strength and presence of mind to boot the windows out.

[Doc]

Taking it a little personal there Snoop? Egress training won't work on an unconscious person. Very few passengers take egress training. When a COD is made public we can all start singing the Let's all take egress training rag. Point is, until we know, we're just "swinging at windmills".

[Widow]

Egress training teaches people how to prepare for ditching AND how to egress safely in the water. As such, egress training has the potential to help prevent injury which would cause unconciousness during the landing phase such that the ability to egress remains. It also permits for improved pax briefing.

I think of it as an opportunity to remind people ... if reading this thread encourages one more pilot to take egress training, or consider wearing a PFD in all phases of flight ... a life may have been saved.

That's enough for me to take all your flack, and anyone elses.

[Mitch Cronin]

Sorry Doc. Widow wins this dispute hands down through motive alone - though that's not her only "win" here. If some of you guys are uncomfortable reading about another death in the tribe, maybe it's time to hang up your hat and try some ground based job for a change?...

It's a cold, hard truth about this business (as some of you know only too well!)... people are sometimes killed... and sometimes they're not killed because they knew a thing or two more than the last poor sod who died and left their lessons as his/her legacy. Ignoring the opportunities to learn is lunacy.

The smallest chance to illuminate things for the next guy is worth jumping on, since it could save a life. ....I think that's exactly what Widow said.

....In fact, I think theres an argument to be made that even the painful reminders, that there are sometimes fatal consequences, can be a good thing.... They might just help keep some people a little more alert to potential dangers?

[floatingbeaver]

First I would like to shed some first hand knowledge of this accident. This was a new pilot with a new to him aircraft on floats with only 25hrs floatime. He was flying an external load (folding boat) to go and do some fishing. This was a very unfortunate event as he had very little experience, and my belief is that he should have had a little more time in on floats before attempting what he was doing. I for one appreciate widows continuous work as there is always something we can all learn from these accidents. The real unfortunate thing was he left on Saturday, so it was a good probability that he flipped upon landing, they only started looking for himand his wife on Monday when they both failed to show up for work. Not that that would have made a difference if as the cadors report says they were both dead inside, I must say that this fellow was not a risk taker or imcomptent in life, he was always prpared be it on a snowmobile trip or hunting or even an airplane fishing trip, I just fell that this was or could have been outside his experience envelope. I hope this helps with some pre conclusions that get made in these matters. Rest in peace my friend FB

[Widow]

Thank you for clarifying what happened with the call to SAR. I, for one, was a little "disturbed" that the flight left on the 23rd and SAR was contacted on the 26th (CADORS says evening of 27th, but that makes no sense if they were found on the morning of the 27th). PLEASE MAKE SURE A RESPONSIBLE PERSON IS FOLLOWING YOUR FLIGHT PROGRESS AT ALL TIMES. Please make sure you let that person know, and that they expect to hear, each time you take off and land.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/syste ... elayed.htm

[valvelifter]

I also think Widow wins with her egress training point, even if there is some debate as to whether it would have helped in this situation or not. I have never flown floats so I cannot personally comment on that, although any amount of extra training can not hurt.

I can however understand why some people (including me) were wondering why this thread started because the egress stuff was only mentioned halfway through this thread. If the egress point was clearly stated early in this thread, the discussion would have taken a more productive turn. Other than that most of us did not know what to say, other than share condolences. There was no info or suggestions on saving a life until much later in the thread, when most comments were already made.

And for those that think that some of us don't care about hearing about these accidents I suggest they think again because although there are some daredevils who think they are immortal most of us feel saddend when any accident is reported.

And I also don't understand why some people come out of nowhere insulting people using some pretty childish vocabulary...

[small penguin]

I think a point of this topic was more than just the egress bit, but also to make us aware of another accident. It is said often, knowledge is power. The more accidents I know about, causes and ways to avoid, the better I feel I can avoid similar situations. Im sure most others are the same way.

[lazyboy]

You all have access to cadors,check daily and it will save widow posting

[xsbank]

Every time Widow posts with something that she thinks will interest or inform us, flocks of yahoos rise up like Castlegar River Moths and flap about spouting nonsense.

Don't pay any attention to them, Widow, some of us appreciate what you post; the beating of moth wings is just annoying (but they feel good gooshing under foot!).

Doc, shame on you for being so grumpy.

[2milefinal]

Underwater Escape Training
google it
And if you ever get the chance to take the training do it.

[twotterflogger]

Underwater Escape Training

if you ever get the chance to take the training do it.

Everyone whom can aford a float rating or can aford to fly in a floatplane needs to take that training regardless of the cost or inconvinience.... You don't have wait for the "chance" to take the training, you owe it to yourself, your family and your friends.

Twotterflogger (Hopes TC will one day make it a mandatory course, for ALL pilots not just float-pilots)

[2milefinal]

Everyone whom can aford a float rating or can aford to fly in a floatplane needs to take that training regardless of the cost or inconvinience.... You don't have wait for the "chance" to take the training, you owe it to yourself, your family and your friends.

Twotterflogger (Hopes TC will one day make it a mandatory course, for ALL pilots not just float-pilots)

...agreed,totally

[AuxBatOn]

You all have access to cadors,check daily and it will save widow posting

You know, no one forced you to open this thread and read it....

[Mitch Cronin]

Almost like if you could just go to the CADORS site yourself if you GARA about yet another unremarkable airplane accident...

Wow!

So you don't give a rats ass "about yet another unremarkable airplane accident" and you think that's an appropriate thing to say here? I hope that kind of ignorance embarrasses the hell out of you some day... cause it really ought to. I can't even think of what to say other than Wow!? That's unbelievably ignorant.

[Mitch Cronin]

When I forget for the moment that I'm speaking with one who appears as a callous ass, I can think of plenty "value" for anyone who's either beginning float flying, or is pretty green at it... Try not to be so arrogant that you suppose ALL who read here have the same level of experience that you have.

Have you forgotten that someone died in this accident?... and many other "unremarkable airplane accidents" that you don't GARA about... People with friends and families left that care and grieve and deserve better than your kind of rotten. Have some respect. I think you should delete your crap and I'll delete my responses quoting you.

[snoopy]

Well I am neither a beginning float pilot, nor a green one, and I am interested in this (and any other related topic). It takes a minimum of two for a conversation, and since we appear to have at least two (if not more) interested parties... voila!, a reason to discuss it. Not in any particular order, or considering any particular point of view - simply an opportunity to have a respectful and open-minded discussion, wherever it may lead.

Thanks!

[Mitch Cronin]

Well said Snoopy. Right on.

[Cat Driver]

I also am of the opinion that we need to know about these accidents, and learn from each accident so we can think about how to avoid having one.