JAZZ sold?

[truedude]

Tony it is DOH for everyone on both carriers.

[tonysoprano]

Yep. You're right. I just whent on the travel website and booked a dummy flt (ok, ok, I know) on Jazz. It gave me C2. I don't have a problem with this in general except that mainline probably has more newby commuters than Jazz and they will lose out but probably not happening often enough. Sorry for being out of date. I don't use Jazz. BTW, the survey I think also asked about "virtual bases" kind of like what WJ has. That might work well for us too....

[Traf]

Tony, you talk about commuters losing out on mainline and things going back to the old way being better for the AC pilots. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that your view might be bit one sided as you mentioned you commute from overseas. Mainline flights tend to serve the bigger cities, some of which have AC bases. Jazz tends to hit the smaller centres. These are the types of places a lot of guys would chose to live and commute from. I would bet that there are as many (if not more) AC pilots using Jazz to get to work as there are using AC.

Regardless of who uses who more, AC implemented the travel policy against the AC employees will and I believe at the time, there was a protest that was passed around and signed by the AC employees. AC still went ahead with it.

So, question is, is this a big enough issue to a majority of the AC employees that it will be a "chip" that will have to be played during 2009? If you are correct and more people travel on AC flights, it may be. If the number is close to even or even slanted towards Jazz, it may not be something that the mainline drivers are willing to give something up for. Either way, AC has once again positioned themselves in the perfect spot for negots in 2009. Oil is going through the roof, the US is in a recession, our economy is slumping and best of all, the AC and Jazz pilots are divided over issues like the travel policy etc... Toss in a few carrots and sit back and wait for the dust to settle. The real losers? The workers! The winners? AC, Jazz and the vultures.

Who gets what travel priority may be the least of our concerns next year. I hope I am wrong!

[tonysoprano]

Traf.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that your view might be bit one sided as you mentioned you commute from overseas

.
Wrong. Go back. Read it again.

I would bet that there are as many (if not more) AC pilots using Jazz to get to work as there are using AC.

Maybe. I just think that Jazz can do what ever it wants to AC if AC can give priority to its own. As long as we all play on a level playing field. No problem.

Regardless of who uses who more, AC implemented the travel policy against the AC employees will and I believe at the time, there was a protest that was passed around and signed by the AC employees. AC still went ahead with it.

That's why people are pissed!!

So, question is, is this a big enough issue to a majority of the AC employees that it will be a "chip" that will have to be played during 2009? If you are correct and more people travel on AC flights, it may be.

We'll see.

AC has once again positioned themselves in the perfect spot for negots in 2009. Oil is going through the roof, the US is in a recession, our economy is slumping and best of all, the AC and Jazz pilots are divided over issues like the travel policy etc... Toss in a few carrots and sit back and wait for the dust to settle. The real losers? The workers! The winners? AC, Jazz and the vultures.

We have one advantage. We gave already. Now it's up to ALPA and ACPA to prove that. We can't give anymore. Let us go bankrupt!! No, not CCAA, I mean let's go tits up!! Remember who we are and what we do. Only then maybe will government, customers and the competition get a reality of who we are and what we do in this land. This time we'll play the brinkmanship card. Enough is enough. Or is it? We decide.

Who gets what travel priority may be the least of our concerns next year. I hope I am wrong!

No. Everything is on the table. This will be a barganing tool. Management will play the give us something we'll give you something, game. If we can gain anything back, maybe the rest will come back in 2013. Still is a great gig. Enjoy it. This is for the political types to work out. We just fly airplanes.

[SQ]

yes guys, everything is in your hands to obtain better conditions in 2009
i'd love to see a pan-canadian-AC pilot-100% strike

no flights at all during only 1 full month... let say december... or even august/ july why not ?


after 1 month Montie and his friends would give you everything you want.
management is not that powerfull, they only meet weak union.

[thrust set]

Tony,

Although I don't commute and don't seem to care that much about trying to regain a travel priority(typical selfish pilot eh). I think the bigger "fish to fry" is along the lines of wages and working conditions but I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.

My only concern is if we walk down that road of travel priority, why is Jazz being singled out and what about all the other divisions that will be separate when ACE dissolves.

[tonysoprano]

thrust.
I think in order to fry the bigger fish we made need to bring everything to the table. Nothing against Jazz, we just want what we had which is the basis of all negots coming up. To get back what we gave up and then some. ACPA is going to great lengths to see what its membership wants. Too bad only 30% have responded so far. If that is any indication, I guess the other 70% think we're doing just fine and don't care about the contract.

[piggy]

Considering the economic environment going into 2009, I would be thankful to stay status-quo at AC and Jazz. Given the price of oil, and Canada's major trading partner is in deep shit. These economic issues combined with upcoming contracts is a dream come true for AC/JAZZ management. Amazing timing.

[JZA]

Both companies have a very large pool of commuters in all employee groups. Pilots, FAs, Agents, etc. If the pass agreement between the two carriers were to come to an end it would have a devestating effect on an equal number of employees on both sides. JAZZ flys to more cities in Canada than any other airline. They operate more flights to more destinations in Canada than AC. Not more seats, but more destinations/flights. As such they are often the only option AC employees have trying to get to places such as Victoria, Nanaimo, Terrace, Sandspit, Prince Rupert, Smithers, Prince George, Whitehorse, Kamloops, Penticton, Castlegar, Cranbrook, Yellowknife, Regina, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Sudbury, Moncton, Fredericton, St, John, Charlottetown, etc, etc.

As an AC employee trying to commute to these places you JAZZ is your only real option. As a JAZZ employee while extremely inconvenient you could still get from YYZ to YVR for example...you would simply have to do a milk run across the country...YYZ-YWG-YYC-YVR....but at least you could get there.

Jump seat agreements are great....but they are only good for pilots...and they are limited to a certain number of seats per flight.

It would be in the best interest of both employee groups to keep the pass agreement as is.

[Glen Quagmire]

I certainly don't see the passes for either side coming to an end but boarding priority might change. Which shouldn't be a huge issue. Using the jumpseat as a weapon against anyone though is idiotic. Anyone denying a jumpseat for personal or political reasons should be ridiculed and have their name posted on a common forum/board.

[dwightschroot]

I think its straight forward to not get rid of the agreement, just change the priority. If I am trying to get on a mainline aircraft I should get a boarding pass before someone from a different company, vice versa for Jazz guys. I think thats fare considering we aren't the same company anymore. If Im a commuter and trying to get on a Jazz flight and work for mainline, I dont think there is a problem getting on after the Jazz employees. Just change priority.

[tonysoprano]

Considering the economic environment going into 2009, I would be thankful to stay status-quo at AC and Jazz. Given the price of oil, and Canada's major trading partner is in deep shit. These economic issues combined with upcoming contracts is a dream come true for AC/JAZZ management. Amazing timing.

Now they're even calling it worse than 9/11. Something tells me the brinkmanship game is on the horizon again.

[dwightschroot]

You read Monties blog I take it. Have you read ACPAs response in the union website as well. Sure looks like the survey needs to be adressed by alot more people.

[tonysoprano]

Actually it was NW's ceo who called it worse than 9/11. Monty will surely agree. ACPA makes a good point with the fuel hedging. I would take it one step further and tell them to reduce management positions and or salaries. The "blue colar" people don't have much more to give. That survey needs more responses too. In 2010 we can't say ACPA didn't ask us.

[SouthIsland]

What a joke this thread is. Just goes to show you AS ALWAYS, pilots are our own worst enemy. Changing the employee travel scheme will only be an advantage to a small percentage of people, and a disadvantage to a large number of Mainline employees who commute on Jazz. How about focusing on issues that will benefit the pilot group as a whole. I think you'll have bigger problems than employee travel priority to deal with in the near future.....just my 2 cents.

[dwightschroot]

South Island, your 2 cents are exactly the what this forum is about. A place where everyone can voice their opinion. This topic was never meant to be an anti-jazz campaign. I was simply curious how this would affect travel. I too am a commuter and appreciate the importance of getting on that airplane to go to work. Your right there are bigger issues to discuss with regards to the negotiations, this is simply a discusion.

[tonysoprano]

Southisland.

How about focusing on issues that will benefit the pilot group as a whole. I think you'll have bigger problems than employee travel priority to deal with in the near future.....just my 2 cents.

I would suggest to you that there is a large number of pilots who commute on AC and Jazz. If you've been paying attention, you wouldn't belittle the importance of commuting and its intricacies. Bigger problems? Sure. They will be delt with as well. ACPA will have to decide what is important enough to bring to the table when the time comes. Negotiation time is a time to be heard. The squeaky wheel time. We could be dealing with layoffs in '09. I'm sure ACPA will fry them bigger fish appropriately. No need to push any panic buttons yet. If you've been around a decade or two in the system, you would know that. If not, you'll learn.

[jazzpilot]

"If it's DOH for everyone on both carriers with the same priority, then I don't have a problem with it." -Tony


Tony this is exactly the way it is now, C2 priority. Jazz employee doh march 2000 and AC employee doh may 2000 priority to jazz and vice versa if the dates are switched and that is on both jazz and AC flts. So if what you said above is ok then what are you whining about?

[rudder]

Ok I must be missing something here. Do AC not have C4 n Jazz? If it's DOH for everyone on both carriers with the same priority, then I don't have a problem with it. But sooner or later I see this coming to an end being separate companies.

No, AC staff are C2 DOH (or if they choose - C1 DOH) on Jazz. And vice-versa.

Since the current policy is "DOH for everyone on both carriers with the same priority" then I guess that you have no problem with it?

[tonysoprano]

Guys, you have to go to the top of this page to figure it out. I'm not explaining it.

[thrust set]

So Tony,

I realize you want to regain everything pre-CCAA and that sounds like a reasonable plan. But since this is a tread mostly about the pass priority would you support changing the priority for Aeroplan employees and every Jazz employee (pilots/mechanics/F/A's /counter staff....etc) since they are not owned by AC. This summer I think is when Milty wanted to sell the remaining shares in ACTS meaning a group of Mechanics, some having been with AC since the 70's and 80's . So this also will be a separate company contracting it's services to AC, should they also not be on the list to have their priority changed. What about ACGHS ( Air Canada ground handling services) will they also fallow suit if they are sold off?

My only point is, will there be day where the pilots board as a C2 and the former owned Aeroplan/ Jazz/ Mechanics/ and Ground Handlers all joining in at some lower priority?

[tonysoprano]

thrust.
It would stand to reason that if we are indeed all separate, the best boarding priority should be given to our own employees first. If there is an agreement between Jazz and AC that has us all on the same priority using DOH, that's fine as well. As far as the other entities, I think they should have a lower priority. We no longer work for the same company. The problem is this is all new and is still a bit of a grey area but I'm sure eventually the company will use it as a barganing tool and offer it or take it away. There will be a day when it will be more cut and dry and I think ACPA might bring it to the table next year. Having said all this, as it stands, employees can always buy themselves a higher priority which pretty much disregards DOH anyway. The unfairness already egsists.

[SouthIsland]

If you've been paying attention, you wouldn't belittle the importance of commuting and its intricacies.

Once again tony your arrogance has gotten the better of you. Before you make ignorant comments, pull your finger out and take a look at my post. Never once did I belittle the importance of commuting. To the contrary, I stated that changing the employee travel scheme would have a negative impact on mainline (and Jazz) commuters. As there is a large percentage of mainline employees who live in communities ONLY served by Jazz, I can't imagine there would be an overwhelming support for this change. But hey, 2009 is just around the corner. I'm sure management will enjoy having some extra bargaining leverage that won't cost them a cent!

[tonysoprano]

If you've been paying attention, you wouldn't belittle the importance of commuting and its intricacies.

Once again tony your arrogance has gotten the better of you. Before you make ignorant comments, pull your finger out and take a look at my post. Never once did I belittle the importance of commuting. To the contrary, I stated that changing the employee travel scheme would have a negative impact on mainline (and Jazz) commuters. As there is a large percentage of mainline employees who live in communities ONLY served by Jazz, I can't imagine there would be an overwhelming support for this change. But hey, 2009 is just around the corner. I'm sure management will enjoy having some extra bargaining leverage that won't cost them a cent!

I would think that once again if you've been following my posts you'd be less ignorant. Your perception of my arrogance has been clouded by your ignorance. I am all for a system that is equal to both sides. There was some info that I was lacking initially but as anyone who is not ignorant or arrogant I corrected myself. You stayed your course. If I were less polite I would call you an asshole.

What a joke this thread is. Just goes to show you AS ALWAYS, pilots are our own worst enemy. Changing the employee travel scheme will only be an advantage to a small percentage of people, and a disadvantage to a large number of Mainline employees who commute on Jazz.

Prove that there is a "large number of mainline who commute on Jazz". I would think that the number of mainline who commute on mainline to YYZ from YOW and YUL alone outnumber the ones who commute on Jazz from anywhere. Many of them don't have much seniority given the large number of newhires at mainline. They may have to wait to get to work because Jazz guy has more seniority on mainline flt. Nevermind commuting. What about pleasure travel? Mainline people getting bumped by Jazz from Europe to Canada. That hurts!! Hey, like I said, Fair is fair if mainline get the same deal on Jazz flts. But I think the odds are against the mainline newbies. I don't think you care. Your comments sound like a Jazz guy ready to go Teal (your curiosity on 2009 in WJ forum gives it away). As you stated, we are our own worse enemies. This might not even be an issue next year. Hopefully, you won't be a part of it.

[Rebel]

There seems to be a misconception about personal pass travel. It is a privilege, not a right. A privilege totally at the discretion of AC. The wording on the ACPA web site is pretty clear on this point.

Company business pass travel and personal pass travel are two very different animals. One is negotiated and part of the contract the latter is not.