Peace Air crash in YXJ report on the web.

[ahramin]

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/200 ... 7w0005.pdf

That was not a very nice day. That storm dropped an incredible amount of snow. I remember loading fuel to get back to Calgary in case the weather that was in John made it to GP before I did.

[shitdisturber]

Safety Action taken: The company went under.

[Anonymous1]

This accident should never have happened.

How did the Captain pass his simulator training under far more difficult conditions than what was encountered on this day?

Why was the aircraft not equipped with an autopilot? The reason the aircraft was high on the first approach was because the aircraft was hand flown. Had the autopilot flown the approach to minimums under a PMA as practiced in sims all over the world, there is no way the aircraft would have landed short of the field.

Why was an FO not given sufficient line indoc to ensure he could perform to standard prior to being released with an inexperienced Captain?

The real question this report never answered is who is now monitoring this Captain today to ensure he does not attempt to gain employment at another company? I can not believe Albert would release a bush pilot as Captain on a Jetstream when there are far more IFR experienced pilots available. Could he not have hired a Sunwest King Air Captain with an offer for more money who would have been current and proficient on flying an ILS to minimums?

What a damn waste in writing off a great airplane for no reason at all!

[. .]

I wouldn't call a jetstream a great airplane on any quantifiable level.

I also wouldn't be so quick to judge, god forbid you ever have a day when everything falls apart on you.

[Anonymous1]

Just because you are a great float pilot means absolutely nothing when it comes to IFR flying. The entire reason you train in the sim is to practice "when everything falls apart" in a safe environment. So I say again...who in the hell released this guy to fly the line after witnessing his sim performance?

[Dave T]

I think that instead of finger pointing everyone needs to read the report and learn from it. The company no longer operates and nobody was hurt. It's not worth pointing fingers.

The causes listed for the accident are things we should all think about.

Brief the approach and don't deviate from that plan. If something needs to be changed and you don't have time to talk about it don't do it.

Try not to make configuration changes at critical times that you don't have to. I don't fly a jetstream but I imagine that landing with one notch of flaps less on a long runway would not have been a huge deal. Be configured and stable by the beacon.

Don't get distracted. 300ft agl in a blizzard is not a good time to have your head down. Remember this and try not to get into that position.

Think about crew pairing. Don't be afraid to say something either captain or FO if you think you may get in over your head. A captain new to IFR an FO with 20 hrs of operational flying in a storm that would make most experienced pilots a little on edge may not have been the best idea.

There were several causes to this accident and we all can learn from it to try and avoid being in the situation ourselves.

[Anonymous1]

Causes of this accident:

Not equipped with autopilot. Aircraft hand flown below glideslope and landed before the runway.

Sim instructor failing to be honest as to the Captain's proficiency in an IFR environment.

Line check Captain failing to ensure F/O trained and experienced to a proficient standard prior to line indoc release.

So the real question I would like to have answered is: why was the aircraft not equipped with an autopilot for safety, and why, out of the hundreds of resumes Albert had on file. why did he chose to hire a Captain with minimal IFR experience? Could he not have chosen a KingAir Captain with 5 years experience that was looking for a move to a better company?

I just don't get it.

[pontius]

Anonymous said....
"Not equipped with autopilot. Aircraft hand flown below glideslope and landed before the runway"

As far as I am aware, most aircraft are not required to have a functioning auto-pilot for dispatch, whatever the conditions, at least to Cat 1 limits, anyway. If a pilot cannot manhandle an aircraft down the ILS to a DH of 200 feet, and execute a successful landing, then he needs more training before he is turned loose on the public.
Also, a two crew operation, properly conducted, would convert a below-glideslope approach into a go-around, especially in instrument conditions.

[bob sacamano]

What's with all this auto-pilot talk? Who says that this aircraft needed an auto-pilot?

Dude, you DON'T need an auto-pilot, so get over yourself and this idea.

If you don't think your skills are up to flying ILS's down to mins, then don't do it. Let the auto-pilot fly you down.

[George Taylor]

Just like the 1900 most Jetstreams don't have auto pilots installed.

[ajet32]

BA31/32 aircraft are not Auto pilot equipped unless they were corporate . The regional airlines most of these machines came from ordered them stock without an AP. F/O's were cheaper than A/P. I imagine they still are today.
The Captain who I have flown with should perhaps have been paired with a more experienced F/O. There is no requirement for this in 704 operations. The oversight required of this operator and others just isn't there anymore.
So anonymous 1 unless you have 5000 hours or more on type maybe you should just stop slamming a very good pilot who had a bad day. Attempting to stop some from working will cause you a lot of grief if you try .

[Four1oh]

"While Flight PE905 was conducting its approaches, the weather at CYXJ was deteriorating
rapidly in blizzard conditions associated with the passage of a warm front aloft."

That plus inexperience, plus lack of adherence from SOP's, plus most likely disorientation= lucky no one got hurt. Lack of Autopilot had nothing to do with it.

[Anonymous1]

Ajet1A, you are trying to tell me that this Captain is a stellar pilot who just had a bad day???? So if you were to look at his sim file, everything would have been commented as "outstanding"? Yet he failed to fly an ILS and crashed on the second try? And all his IFR performance prior to this day was well done?

Is it not the job of a Chief Pilot to provide a certain amount of oversight? You claim that its not required for 704 ops so that's an excuse? I don't need any CARS to tell me that a float pilot who can't fly an ILS should not only be matched with a high time F/O, but probably even better, shown the door (unless, as Ajet1A claims, it was all just a momentary indiscretion because of he didn't bring his A game to work this day.

The thing that pisses me off the most about this entire accident is that the same players are still in the industry and by not removing them, nothing will change. The same chief pilot who chose to hire this clown will still be using the same hiring criteria at his next job, Albert will find more money and start another airline, the Captain will be pushing a KingAir somewhere around Slave Lake and the beat goes on.

[MrWings]

Albert will find more money and start another airline

Albert isn't going to dump any more of his pension money into another airline.

[MrWings]

Could he not have chosen a KingAir Captain with 5 years experience that was looking for a move to a better company?

Maybe he didn't like you.

[Ogee]

The real question this report never answered is who is now monitoring this Captain today to ensure he does not attempt to gain employment at another company? What a damn waste in writing off a great airplane for no reason at all!

You presumptuous little twerp! Who the hell are you to suggest that someone who has had an accident shouldn't be able to work again? What the hell kind of a TSB report do you think would recommend that a pilot should be "monitored" to make sure he never works again?

Writing off a great airplane for no reason? That must have stumped the TSB, although, unlike you, I think they might have figured out the reason was that it landed where there wasn't a runway.

Get a hold of Strega. He may be able to lend you a bicycle pump.

And, post your real name up here. I'd say there are many companies very anxious to know who you are in order that they can make sure that someone who posts rubbish like you have never gets to sit in one of the front seats of their airplanes.

[FrankTheTank]

Anonymous1 you sound like you have inside info on the capt. Did you work for this airline? You seem to be using this as a personal vandeta.
FTT

[Flying Nutcracker]

"The captain discontinued his instrument
scan and confirmed the appearance of the approach lights."

As this happened at 300' AGL it seems disturbing to me that people are talking about lack of A/P or apparent lack of ILS handflying skills, when it is somewhat obvious that it was the transition from IFR scan to visual reference flying that became the bigger challenge during this approach! Given the weather conditions it could happen to most of us on this board, whether you want to admit it or not...

A solid executed PMA would definately have made the transition easier, in my opinion that is. I am not here to speculate, nor to point fingers. Just stating an opinion! There is a lesson to learn from this, and it goes back to what alot of people have said already. Never go green on green, and use SOPs for what they are worth. They are usually designed to give the safest and most conservative approach to an operation, or as someone else told me... they are designed to prevent screw ups from the past!

[WJ700]

I worked for "Albert" a long time ago. All he cared about was money back then... he couldn't even be bothered to say good morning while he smoked a pack in the back of the Seneca from YXD-YPE. I wasn't there for when they went full in to sked flying, but I can assure you he wasn't the type to get involved in the resumes.

As for the rest of the arm chair quaterbacking... you just sound like an idiot. A low vis approach is what it is and companies have accidents as a team... not just the pilots involved.

[Dog]

Hate to say it but:
This sort of accident is just waiting to happen again. With the job market the way it is the experience drain is really showing in the entry and mid levels of the industry. I couldn't help but be alarmed at the total IFR experience between the PIC and the FO... it was around 500 hours.(!)
I see this in the industry now and have to wonder if it's reasonable to pair low time Captains with zero time FOs. Operating in a two crew environment effectively takes significant training, commitment, and experience; something that is often glossed over in training at the 704 level. It's also my belief that either one should be able to complete the flight, regardless of the conditions, should the other become incapacitated. Is it reasonable to expect a pilot with nothing but a multi-IRF and single engine time to complete that flight after 20 hours in a sim? Are the rides too lax? It's easy to see how a ccp doesn't want to fail someone after the company spent $Xk on them.
Is it time for stricter enforcement of the current rides or different regulation?

[Tube Driver]

Anonymous1;

Who the hell are you and what planet are you from? Why does your seemingly great experience level not include the knowledge that 99.9% of the Jetstreams in this country do not have autopilots. Give your head a shake you f**king retard. Just hope that you are not the topic of discussion on a forum such as this as bad things can happen to any one of us, and our jobs as pilots is to mitigate that risk to the best of our abilities.

P.S.
A**hole.

[frog]

Even if it is not mentioned in the report fatigue was always an issue with this company. 15 hours day were pretty common.

[Anonymous1]

Tubedriver: why are you so focused on the one issue of an autopilot while disregarding the other comments, specifically:

Out of the hundreds of experienced King Air Captains and Jetstream Captains in Canada, why was there a decision made to hire a new Captain with minimal IFR experience? Could the salary not have been adjusted to attract a very qualified, highly experienced Captain that would not have crashed?

What was the performance of the Captain in the sim prior to the accident? Someone was responsible for assessing this sub-standard Captain as meeting the standard for Captain at Peace Air. Is this same sim instructor / check pilot still out there waiting to make another mistake?

Why was an F/O with 250 hours and never minimal IFR skills assigned to this position before a very thorough and extensive line indoc? If I had a company that I was planning to collect the insurance on a wreck, I would do exactly what occurred here: hire a Captain with almost no IFR experience, pair him with a new F/O with no experience and put them in an airplane equipped with minimal avionics for an approach at minimums, sit back and collect the money.

[Ogee]

You are a real piece of shite, Anonymous1.

Now you accuse Peace Air of insurance fraud through some delusion of yours that hiring inexperienced crew is a good way to collect on hull insurance, even if it means killing everyone on board.

If you get a chance to bugger off, take it, you mindless cockroach.

[Cat Driver]

It is clashes such as this that makes Avcanada such interesting reading.