First VLJ Crash

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Changes in Latitudes
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First VLJ Crash

Post by Changes in Latitudes »

Controller: "do you think you can make it??"
...to which the pilot replied "yes"



Nope...
NTSB Identification: LAX08FA117
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, April 19, 2008 in Carlsbad, CA
Aircraft: Cessna 510, registration: N54PV
Injuries: 4 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On April 19, 2008, about 1010 Pacific daylight time, a Cessna 510 Citation Mustang, N54PV, sustained substantial damage following the pilot's intentional ground loop maneuver during the landing roll on runway 24 at McClellan-Palomar Airport, Carlsbad, California. California Natural Products was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. The commercial pilot and three passengers were not injured. The personal flight departed from Lincoln Regional Airport, Lincoln, California, about 0854, with a planned destination of Carlsbad. At the time of the accident, the pilot had canceled his instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan, and was executing a visual flight rules (VFR) approach to runway 24 in visual meteorological conditions.

The pilot was interviewed by a National Transportation Safety Board investigator both immediately after the accident and the following day with regards to his recollections of events that transpired. He affirmed that he is the president of the company operating the airplane. The pilot reported that on the morning of the accident he flew the accident airplane from Stockton, California, to Lincoln, which consisted of a 16-minute flight. After landing in Lincoln he picked up passengers. He subsequently departed at 0854, and was cleared to 35,000 feet mean seal level (msl) as requested on his IFR flight plan. The en route cruise was normal as the airplane approached Carlsbad and the pilot began a standard terminal arrival route (STAR); during the initial segment of the STAR the pilot configured the autopilot in vertical speed mode.

The pilot further stated that as the airplane crossed over the Avenal transition [waypoint on the SADDE6 STAR] about 30,000 feet msl, the right [co-pilot's] Primary Flight Display (PFD) began to flicker. About 5 minutes later, as the airplane continued to descend through 28,000 feet msl, the left PFD flashed an alert indicating that the autopilot had disconnected. The pilot immediately felt the disengagement of the autopilot from what he described as the heavy control forces on the control yoke that he had to exert to fly the airplane. He additionally noted that the autopilot activation light was not illuminated, further confirming that the system had disengaged. Shortly thereafter, the pilot discovered that the electric pitch trim [located on the control yoke] was not operational. After establishing that the pitch trim was not functional, he ultimately began using the trim wheel located on the center consol, which operated normally. The pilot noted that following the autopilot failure, the flight director bars overlaid about a 10-degree pitch up attitude despite the descending flight path.

Flying the airplane by hand, the pilot continued the STAR and reported to air traffic controllers (ATC) that he had an autopilot malfunction. As the pilot descended to 5,000 feet msl, the airplane encountered instrument meteorological conditions (IMC). Controllers vectored the pilot to the instrument landing system (ILS) to runway 24. The airplane broke out of the overcast conditions at 2,600 feet msl and the pilot relayed to controllers that he would make a visual approach to the runway. The pilot noted that he was overwhelmed with the electrical failures and fatigued from maneuvering the airplane by hand for such a long duration (which he approximated was around 45 minutes).

The airplane crossed the runway threshold configured with the wing flaps fully extended [30 degrees] and flying about 15 knots faster than his predetermined landing speed; the pilot had previously calculated a Vref speed of 87 knots. From looking at the airspeed indicator, he noted that the airplane was fast for landing but thought the runway would be long enough to accommodate the likely delayed touchdown. As the airplane progressed down the runway he approached the small uphill slope that was located around the middle. The airplane approached the apex of the sloping runway and the pilot began to clearly distinguish where the runway surface ended, which was sooner than he had anticipated.

The touchdown occurred far down the runway surface, past the middle location. The pilot realized that despite his braking attempts and extension of speed brakes, the airplane was going to continue off the runway surface over a small downsloping cliff at the end. He determined that he would not be able to abort the landing due to the airplane's diminished groundspeed and elected to perform a 180-degree course reversal by rapidly turning the control yoke. The airplane ground looped, coming to rest in a dirt area south of the runway; the main landing gear collapsed and the flaps folded under the wings.

A Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector spoke with a controller that was in contact with the pilot during the accident sequence. She observed the airplane approaching runway 24 and noted that it appeared to be quite high in altitude. In a radio transmission she queried, "do you think you can make it" to which the pilot replied "yes." The airplane then touched down on the runway past taxiway A4 and subsequently ground looped.

Following the accident, the airport issued a special routine aviation weather report (METAR) at 1012. It stated: winds from 130 degrees at 8 knots; overcast at 2,700 feet; visibility 8 miles; temperature 14 degrees Celsius; dew point 08 degrees Celsius; and altimeter 29.95 inHg.

Detailed system examinations are ongoing.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Cat Driver »

The pilot noted that he was overwhelmed with the electrical failures and fatigued from maneuvering the airplane by hand for such a long duration (which he approximated was around 45 minutes).
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by TG »

Exactly my thinking :?
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Doc »

He had to hand fly the thing for 45 minutes? Well, no bloody wonder he was tired!
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Cat Driver »

I can't imagine Cessna making their new VLJ all that difficult to hand fly.

This story if true could be another example of far to much reliance on automation to get from A to B.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by SQ »

This story if true could be another example of far to much reliance on automation to get from A to B.
that'll be the way to make the difference between pilots and automates :mrgreen:

As the pilot descended to 5,000 feet msl, the airplane encountered instrument meteorological conditions (IMC). Controllers vectored the pilot to the instrument landing system (ILS) to runway 24. The airplane broke out of the overcast conditions at 2,600 feet msl and the pilot relayed to controllers that he would make a visual approach to the runway.
did he understand the planned approach ? not even sure. in that case an ILS is the surest way to make it.
an auto pilot failure shoudn't stop you following the STAR and the approach, may be that would have helped him keeping the control of his A/C and speed, no ?

i wouldn't like to be that dependent on AP :cry:
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by 200hr Wonder »

In the pilots defense with an AP failure he may have been fighting against the AP servos. Anyone know if this plane is fly by wire? In which case it may not have been more difficult to control. Just saying it may have required significant muscle to fly and 45min could tire someone out.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Sasky »

Then push the big red A/P disconnect button... voila!
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by square »

boourns
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by F21 »

Wow, it sounds like the "pilot" basically treated this thing like is was Apollo 13. An auto pilot failure is supposed to be a non-event for all you students out there. There is no reason to need special handling and bust altitudes. I really hate the idea of VLJs and 200 hour PPLs buying themselves their own jet.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by rigpiggy »

200hr Wonder wrote:In the pilots defense with an AP failure he may have been fighting against the AP servos. Anyone know if this plane is fly by wire? In which case it may not have been more difficult to control. Just saying it may have required significant muscle to fly and 45min could tire someone out.
Sasky wrote:Then push the big red A/P disconnect button... voila!
A/P servo's require clutches, and are failsafe ie: no power, no a/p servo activation. Methinks the whole VLJ insurance industry just took a big climb
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by meflypretty »

Anybody have any thoughts on his emergency 180? Does groundlooping an airplane seem like a good idea to slow down or just a great way to shear the gear and maybe cartwheel?
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Strega »

Flying a raw data approach should not be that difficult, if one is in practice.

runaway trim was not an issue here as it was mentioned the trim wheel was operating normal.

I think this is a clear example of "monkey push button" ,,, "monkey doesnt get banana as the bananas are all gone"

On a lighter note, I bet this guy was an excellent "conflict in the cockpit resolver" too bad he just wasnt a better stick!
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by grimey »

Changes in Latitudes wrote:Controller: "do you think you can make it??"
...to which the pilot replied "yes"

Nope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4CQfaBGWSo

Not the first time the question has been answered incorrectly. :)
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by the_professor »

rigpiggy wrote:. Methinks the whole VLJ insurance industry just took a big climb
The actuaries factored these types of accidents in long before any VLJ was off the drawing board. They are expected, and they are factored into the premiums.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by taylor498 »

grimey wrote:
Changes in Latitudes wrote:Controller: "do you think you can make it??"
...to which the pilot replied "yes"

Nope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4CQfaBGWSo

Not the first time the question has been answered incorrectly. :)

wow.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by RatherBeFlyingInCanada »

Cat Driver wrote:
The pilot noted that he was overwhelmed with the electrical failures and fatigued from maneuvering the airplane by hand for such a long duration (which he approximated was around 45 minutes).

No question he broke his duty day right there.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by xsbank »

Looks like the VLJ will be the replacement for the Bonanza, the famous Fork-tailed Doctor-Killer.

Takes a lot of practice to get good at flying something hot and most 'doctors' and company presidents have the dough to buy one but not the time to practice flying one.

Problem is, how much are you willing to pay an experienced professional pilot to fly a tiny jet, or will you just pay enough to get a newby?
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Adam Oke »

meflypretty wrote:Does groundlooping an airplane seem like a good idea to slow down or just a great way to shear the gear and maybe cartwheel?
In the case of a landout in a glider (can't return, thus you pick a field and land in it....common practice). If I were to botch my approach, end up chewing up the field, touch down late and a fence is coming up? Heck yes ground loop her. Wires are dangerous and have a tendency to cut, slice, and decappitate. I say, along with many others, loop it and let the aircraft take the hit....not you.

In the case of powered aircraft .... would take some thought. But my idea is that there is alot of crumple zone in the wings. I see no reason not too if the end of the trail looks rough as guts.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Hedley »

I get crapped on here regularly for my anchronistic
insistence on old-fashioned stick & rudder, hands-on
flying skills.

Is this really the future that everyone wants? If the
autopilot doesn't work, time to crash, wearing your
white shirt complete with four gold bars?
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Strega »

Hedley,

I couldnt agree more!
Doesnt it make you feel great when your or loved ones fly commercially and the boys up front are:
"A good fit with the rest of the team, willing to learn, attitude, dedicated"
Too bad we've forgotten that to be a pilot, you should know how to fly as well :wink:
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by BTD »

Changes in Latitudes wrote:Controller: "do you think you can make it??"
...to which the pilot replied "yes"


The pilot noted that following the autopilot failure, the flight director bars overlaid about a 10-degree pitch up attitude despite the descending flight path.
[/quote]

:smt017

Maybe I'm missing something here. When I fly an airplane with a flight director if the command bars indicate up despite my descending path. I pitch up. If I'm intentionally going down, I adjust the mode to command down. Hmm.

Oh well, I moved up in size but down in technology and don't have to worry about such things anymore. Just good old hand flying nowadays.

BTD
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Steve Baker »

Hedley, not to remove any of the negativity directed towards the pilot of this VLJ if the description of the accident is correct but, I don't think that this fellow was wearing any gold bars.
I get crapped on here regularly for my anchronistic
insistence on old-fashioned stick & rudder, hands-on
flying skills.

Is this really the future that everyone wants? If the
autopilot doesn't work, time to crash, wearing your
white shirt complete with four gold bars?
And then from Stega;
Hedley,

I couldnt agree more!
Doesnt it make you feel great when your or loved ones fly commercially and the boys up front are:
"A good fit with the rest of the team, willing to learn, attitude, dedicated"
Too bad we've forgotten that to be a pilot, you should know how to fly as well
You do know that none of this is a commercial operation? If you want to rail against something, at least make sense. This is the American equivalent of a 604 operation. I fully agree that the poor employees of these companies should receive the benefit of the same oversight, such that it is, of a commercial operation. Instead, in Canada, they are overseen by their own lobby group, the CBAA.

Certainly the qualities you named are nice to have but, I have no personal knowledge of a commercial operation that doesn't also value systems knowledge, situational awarness and good hands and feet.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by Holy Magenta »

I definitely wouldn't blame the plane. It sounds like he was able to trim it manually so he wasn't fighting forces.The Ceiling was 2800' on an ILS with an 8kt Cross Wind, and he touched down past A4. (Taxi way A4 is 2/3rds of the way down the runway) I think this dude was just scared shitless and wanted onto the ground, because he could have easily joined a visual circuit after breaking out when he realized he wasn't going to make it... WOW. How about making that decision before you land 3/4 of the way down the runway and go around instead of crash landing to save going off the end.

Another Kennedy if you ask me, money doesn't buy you experience, and these guys get into machines with a little performance and they turn small non-event situations into accidents. I'm sure the lawyers will prove its Cessna's fault though... sad responsible-free, lawyer made world we got.
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Re: First VLJ Crash

Post by goingmach_1 »

Groundlooping a jet because you f"uped the approach. Thats unique. Gee I wonder who signed him off. Or should I say, I wonder who he paid off to get his licence. Unless your flying a big bird with auto landing, all airplanes are hand flown to the touch down. So if unexpectly you have to hand fly the aircraft sooner than later, as in this case, you would think that your "feel" for the machine would be better versus auto pilot on till 200 agl and click it off and land. I guess I am old school.

Speed kills, as in this case. In my jet, for every 10 knots over Vref your going to chew up 1000ft more runway. Armchair quarterbacking is not going to fix this guy, but having a mentor pro-pilot for a ungodly low salary sitting beside him or her will make it alot safer all-round. As this segment of the indusrty hits the airways, I hope the regulators put a mechanism in place to help the new drivers out. Because if not, watch out as the EGO will be flying these things wreaking havoc all over the place.

What blows me away on this one, is that it was VFR basically after getting through the cloud. If it does not look right, thats becasue it ain't right. Go around and make it right. No one is going to fine you, give you shit or wahtever for making a good decision. But they are going to have something to say if you make a bad decision.
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