IFR Clearances

[Lurch]

I keep getting them same grief from ATC in a BC and it's confusing me.

According to the AIM/CARs I must read back the full clearance unless a SID is given then I only have to read back my code unless they request a full read back. Normally this works in three out of the four provinces I fly in, but every time I go into BC and I read back just the code I get attitude from the controllers,

"Did I say that too quick for you to get it all?"
"You got Flight plan route right?"
"Do I need to read that again for you?"

I have been tempted to take them to task on this but nothing good ever comes from arguing with ATC so I just read the full thing back and go on my way.

I have never had this issue in any other province except this one and this is at different airports. Is this a regional thing? I now read back the full clearance when in BC just to avoid the nagging.

Lurch

[AuxBatOn]

I've flown in BC a couple times and never got that problem. What airports did you experience this?

AuxBatOn

[altiplano]

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[AuxBatOn]

altiplano: AFAIK, you don't need to read back the SID.

A clearance received by a pilot must be read back to the controller (CAR 602.31), except in certain circumstances. When the clearance is received on the ground, before departing a controlled aerodrome, and an SID is included in the clearance, the pilot only needs to acknowledge receipt of the clearance by repeating the aircraft call sign and the transponder Code that was assigned. If there is an amendment to the altitude contained in the SID, that altitude shall also be read back. At any time that the controller requests a full readback, the pilot shall comply. Also, the pilot may, at any time, read back a clearance in full to seek clarification.

AuxBatOn

[lilfssister]

I can see that being likely as I have had some FSS guys quiz me on readbacks at other locations over trivial things/wordings...

Another one of those ambiguous things we deal with.

We must read a clearance back to ATC verbatim.

We must deliver it to you verbatim.

We must clarify your readback if YOU don't read it back verbatim, to ensure we verify that you understand/copied any restrictions, etc.

If you leave out bits that may come back to bite US for not verifying them with you, or use "cool" slang, it's likely you're going to be asked to confirm this or that.

[Doc]

And it ain't a contest to see who talks faster kids. If I get a "machine gun" controller, I read the clearance back like it's my first day speaking English.

[AuxBatOn]

lilfssister: Then ask for a full read back!

ie: "ATC Clears C-FABC to the Butt @#$! Nowhere airport via the WhoCares 3 departure, Whateverfix, Flight Planned Route, Squawk 1234. On Departure, no turns prior to FuckedUp Fix, Read Back"

AuxBatOn

[lilfssister]

lilfssister: Then ask for a full read back!

ie: "ATC Clears C-FABC to the Butt @#$! Nowhere airport via the WhoCares 3 departure, Whateverfix, Flight Planned Route, Squawk 1234. On Departure, no turns prior to FuckedUp Fix, Read Back"

AuxBatOn

Pretty sure you're required to read back in full any clearance (other the the ones containing SID's from a controlled airport)?

[AuxBatOn]

Gotcha, should have clued in from your previous post (and obvious name) that you were working FSS. Disregard.

AuxBatOn

[lilfssister]

[quietwing]

I agree with you Lurch and Auxbaton the only exception I've seen is at airports that may have multiple SIDS available YVR and YYZ come to mind,(I'm sure there are more) the controllers there seem to want the SID in the readback.

[AuxBatOn]

In which case, quietwing, it is specified in the CFS as to what to read back in the PRO section!

AuxBatOn

[altiplano]

Good call AuxBat... didn't know it was specified there for a particular airport. I just always thought it was what you had to do...

[kevenv]

I keep getting them same grief from ATC in a BC and it's confusing me.

According to the AIM/CARs I must read back the full clearance unless a SID is given then I only have to read back my code unless they request a full read back. Normally this works in three out of the four provinces I fly in, but every time I go into BC and I read back just the code I get attitude from the controllers,

"Did I say that too quick for you to get it all?"
"You got Flight plan route right?"
"Do I need to read that again for you?"

I have been tempted to take them to task on this but nothing good ever comes from arguing with ATC so I just read the full thing back and go on my way.

I have never had this issue in any other province except this one and this is at different airports. Is this a regional thing? I now read back the full clearance when in BC just to avoid the nagging.

Lurch

Is this at a controlled airport from an air traffic controller?

[Tim]

I hate when following the rules gets you bitched at. Try flying in the Moncton ACC with a Chinese student who has a thick accent. They could say 'cleared to McDonalds for a bigmac and fries, fly as close to other a/c as possible while enroute' and they would get a 'readback correct.' Usually a very helpful bunch slotting the training a/c ito the flow, but frequently a blatently wrong altitude/hdg/appch clearence is readback to ATC with the standard 'readback correct' issued. I guess they're banking on the instructor getting it right. Who's the buck gonna stop with when there's a very near miss from a misread clearence readback that is accepted by ATC. If the audio tapes got pulled I would go badly for that controller methinks.

[Lurch]

YVR was the lastest and ZBB was the worst, the first quote. I would have gone after ZBB but they were running all three freq through one controller so I didn't want to tie up the line. I thought I was doing them a favour by keeping my read back short

I guess I'll check the CFS and see what it says for read backs but none of them ever wanted me to repeat the SID just the route because Flight Plan route is that difficult to know, I did file the flight plan

Lurch

[privateer]

i think its the other provinces who have got this problem since most SIDs east of BC are rwy heading to 7000ft or something. You do that in BC your likely to hit a mountain. So I think there is a little more severity put into the IFR clearance.?

[FICU]

If it's a ground or clearance delivery controller with 1 SID at the airport you only have to read back the code unless a departure runway was part of the clearance then you have to read back the runway as well. If they give a departure frequency in the clearance you have to read that back. If there are multiple SIDs you have to read back the SID assigned. If it's an FSS specialist you have to read back everything he/she gives you in the clearance verbatim.

[AuxBatOn]

If it's a ground or clearance delivery controller with 1 SID at the airport you only have to read back the code unless a departure runway was part of the clearance then you have to read back the runway as well. If they give a departure frequency in the clearance you have to read that back. If there are multiple SIDs you have to read back the SID assigned. If it's an FSS specialist you have to read back everything he/she gives you in the clearance verbatim.

Can you give me a reference for that please?

[invertedattitude]

And it ain't a contest to see who talks faster kids. If I get a "machine gun" controller, I read the clearance back like it's my first day speaking English.

If you understood the controller anyway do you still do this?

I'm curious if you just do it just because, or do you not understand the clearence?

One reason has a valid reason for doing as you say, if you're doing it to try and prove a point, your point likely won't get across, you'll just end up irritating the controller, if that's your goal then that's fine I guess...

A controller might be hammering out a clearance quickly because he/she believes you know what you're doing, if its understandable to you, I fail to see the problem.

[FICU]

If it's a ground or clearance delivery controller with 1 SID at the airport you only have to read back the code unless a departure runway was part of the clearance then you have to read back the runway as well. If they give a departure frequency in the clearance you have to read that back. If there are multiple SIDs you have to read back the SID assigned. If it's an FSS specialist you have to read back everything he/she gives you in the clearance verbatim.

Can you give me a reference for that please?

Common sense...

If the airport has 2 or more active runways they will most likely give you a departure runway in the clearance so you know which one they want you to use and they want to know you know, hence the read back.

If the airport has 2 or more departure frequencies they will give you the appropriate one and want to know you know, hence the read back.

If the airport has more then 1 SID they will assign one to you and want to know that you know, hence the read back.

[AuxBatOn]

If it's a ground or clearance delivery controller with 1 SID at the airport you only have to read back the code unless a departure runway was part of the clearance then you have to read back the runway as well. If they give a departure frequency in the clearance you have to read that back. If there are multiple SIDs you have to read back the SID assigned. If it's an FSS specialist you have to read back everything he/she gives you in the clearance verbatim.

Can you give me a reference for that please?

Common sense...

If the airport has 2 or more active runways they will most likely give you a departure runway in the clearance so you know which one they want you to use and they want to know you know, hence the read back.

If the airport has 2 or more departure frequencies they will give you the appropriate one and want to know you know, hence the read back.

If the airport has more then 1 SID they will assign one to you and want to know that you know, hence the read back.

At busy airports, from my experience, they want the minimum read back required as the frequency can be busy, unless, of course, you are seeking clarification. Minimum for me is Callsign and Squawk, unless otherwise requested directly by ATC or indirectly in the CFS.

AuxBatOn

[J31]

And it ain't a contest to see who talks faster kids. If I get a "machine gun" controller, I read the clearance back like it's my first day speaking English.

If you understood the controller anyway do you still do this?

I'm curious if you just do it just because, or do you not understand the clearence?

One reason has a valid reason for doing as you say, if you're doing it to try and prove a point, your point likely won't get across, you'll just end up irritating the controller, if that's your goal then that's fine I guess...

A controller might be hammering out a clearance quickly because he/she believes you know what you're doing, if its understandable to you, I fail to see the problem.

I also get annoyed with controllers and pilots that feel they have to speak “like a machine gun”. Usually they end up repeating, wasting more time than if it had been done in a normal manner. As for controllers issuing a rapid fire clearance…….slow down! I want to get it right the first time and can not write that fast!

[airway]

If it's a ground or clearance delivery controller with 1 SID at the airport you only have to read back the code unless a departure runway was part of the clearance then you have to read back the runway as well. If they give a departure frequency in the clearance you have to read that back. If there are multiple SIDs you have to read back the SID assigned. If it's an FSS specialist you have to read back everything he/she gives you in the clearance verbatim.

Can you give me a reference for that please?

You won't get a reference for this because there is none. The only reference for inital IFR readbacks has already been given:

AIM 6.1 ATC Clearance wrote:
A clearance received by a pilot must be read back to the controller (CAR 602.31), except in certain circumstances. When the clearance is received on the ground, before departing a controlled aerodrome, and an SID is included in the clearance, the pilot only needs to acknowledge receipt of the clearance by repeating the aircraft call sign and the transponder Code that was assigned. If there is an amendment to the altitude contained in the SID, that altitude shall also be read back. At any time that the controller requests a full readback, the pilot shall comply. Also, the pilot may, at any time, read back a clearance in full to seek clarification.

At SOME airports where there is more than 1 SID the controllers want to hear the SID # in the readback. You can always start by reading back the aircraft call sign and the transponder Code that was assigned only, and then see if the controller wants more. Then the next time you are at that airport remember what the minimum read back is. I don't recall ever being asked for a readback of the runway or the departure frequency in western Canada, when a SID is included in the clearance.

[FICU]

I don't recall ever being asked for a readback of the runway or the departure frequency in western Canada, when a SID is included in the clearance.

I don't either but it just makes sense... I have heard other aircraft call up ground after pushing back and ask for a non active runway and the controller asked him if he understood his initial clearance was to depart the active. I have heard other aircraft depart on a SID and contact the wrong departure frequency.

If the SID clearance has anything extra added to it I will always read that back to let the controller know I understand what is expected of me after I push back and depart.

In the US you can expect an entirely different clearance then what was flight planned so expect to do many full read backs and have your maps ready.