a real question here

[xsbank]

Sorry Mcrit, don't agree. Actions speak much louder than words and the event will be remembered in the future long after the words are forgotten.

If you instil GOOD habits in your students, they will always have a strong background to fall back on if things go wrong. You cannot show them every situation that they might encounter such as inverted spins or flying in box canyons. Show them the ones you are supposed to show them and teach them how to avoid the ones that might/will hurt them. We don't demonstrate crashes or ground-loops, why show them how to die in cloud?

[mcrit]

Sorry Mcrit, don't agree

.....your perogative, I'm not telling you how to run your show.
An instrument rated instructor flying through cloud is really no big deal. All the students I've done it with took my point to heart and they are all still alive.

[BoostedNihilist]

I'm not doing this to be a dink, but someone pointed it out to me, and I found it highly interesting..

perogative... this word does not exist.. I found this very surprising.

the correct word is prerogative

Weird huh?

[mcrit]

inglish me prefect not all ways hat

[Airflow]

I agree too with showing a student what happens when you fly into cloud. Someone said that students will do stupid things, especially when they think no one else is looking!! Better yet, I like to show them what 3 miles vis looks like and 1 mile... this is really enough "intensity" to a student with less then 45hrs. Then talk about legal mins and personal mins.

As for the thread on reduced power, just a different perspective; a few students of mine work on engines and they though running an engine at red line is bad! One of them thought that on his first solo he'd do what he thought was right... he reduced power on climb out (172), barley clearing the trees at the end of the runway!! He mentioned this story when he got back and he said that he now knew why I rode his a@@ with full power on t/o.... I guess this would classify as self inflicted intensity!!!

[MichaelP]

Climbing with many aircraft engines at less than full throttle is often climbing with a mixture leaner than recommended for the higher temperatures at the lower speed.

I used to race aeroplanes in the handicap race competitions in England (Kings Cup and all that).
The mighty Condor's 0-200 engine ran at its full rated 2,750 RPM for the whole race...
I used the surface effect to cross the Channel in 11 minutes... I once clipped the water with my wheels off Portsmouth Castle doing the same thing; an Islander was passing me at the same level!
I insisted that pilots use a minimum 2,350 RPM when cruising the O-200 engine (75% @ 2,550 RPM). I didn't want pilots ruining my engines by revving them too slow.

[Strega]

Climbing with many aircraft engines at less than full throttle is often climbing with a mixture leaner than recommended for the higher temperatures at the lower speed.

I used to race aeroplanes in the handicap race competitions in England (Kings Cup and all that).
The mighty Condor's 0-200 engine ran at its full rated 2,750 RPM for the whole race...
I used the surface effect to cross the Channel in 11 minutes... I once clipped the water with my wheels off Portsmouth Castle doing the same thing; an Islander was passing me at the same level!
I insisted that pilots use a minimum 2,350 RPM when cruising the O-200 engine (75% @ 2,550 RPM). I didn't want pilots ruining my engines by revving them too slow.

Thats nothing!
From what Ive heard, the small O-200 planes at that race ( I think there was a race a Boundry Bay some time ago) run over 4000Rpm!

[MichaelP]

This was a bog standard engine though...
This is the Condor I owned for 22 years and flew the Channel in the Biggin Hill to Ghent air race when it was a Tiger Club aeroplane:



and this is the one I flew in the Schneider Cup handicap race around the Solent when the Islander passed me:



Imagine renting an aeroplane from anywhere in Canada... "I'm just going into an air race and will be flying your aircraft at full throttle all the way!".

I liked that O-200 engine, a very good old product indeed and superior to the O-235 that they tried to replace it with.
So superior that many American companies are using it in new production aeroplanes...

[MorganAirCFI]

My question would be why would we need to simulate a reduced power take-off, when we can do a good job in demonstrating it when we practice slow flight, stalls, and spins safely at altitude? Seems like an uneccesary risk to me.

As for the thread on reduced power, just a different perspective; a few students of mine work on engines and they though running an engine at red line is bad! One of them thought that on his first solo he'd do what he thought was right... he reduced power on climb out (172), barley clearing the trees at the end of the runway!! He mentioned this story when he got back and he said that he now knew why I rode his a@@ with full power on t/o.... I guess this would classify as self inflicted intensity!!!

A C-172 should not redline on take-off. Static RPM at Takeoff power is 2280-2400. I've only seen a 172 redline in a dive. The newer models are a different story, seen them redline at cruise.

[MichaelP]

It's different running a slug aeroengine at 2800 RPM red line to red lining a motorcycle engine at a multiple of that RPM.

The Gipsy engine used to have to be throttled back half an inch to 'climb power'.
Most American engines are designed to run over rich at full power to keep them cool so you should not reduce power on the climbout unless the POH/AFM states you should.

A parallel subject:
Transport Canada say you should put the mixture into rich before descending, and I disagree with this one.
Today's descent in the Cherokee with the mixture leaned showed that as the throttle was reduced to maintain the same RPM as height was lost, the EGT remained at the same temperature.
Passing through 2,500 feet towards the level off, the mixture was advanced and the throttle then advanced.
I believe that enrichening the mixture prior to a descent can contribute to shock cooling the engine.
Comments?

[Airflow]

A C-172 should not redline on take-off. Static RPM at Takeoff power is 2280-2400. I've only seen a 172 redline in a dive. The newer models are a different story, seen them redline at cruise.

You and I know that, but keep in mind that I was decribing the perspective of a 10 hrs (or so) student pilot who thought that he was going to break the engine by using full power... only to experiment by himself on his first solo! (This is despite repeated critisim, trying to enforce correct procedure and explaining the why!)

Otherwise, I totally agree!

[MorganAirCFI]

A C-172 should not redline on take-off. Static RPM at Takeoff power is 2280-2400. I've only seen a 172 redline in a dive. The newer models are a different story, seen them redline at cruise.

You and I know that, but keep in mind that I was decribing the perspective of a 10 hrs (or so) student pilot who thought that he was going to break the engine by using full power... only to experiment by himself on his first solo! (This is despite repeated critisim, trying to enforce correct procedure and explaining the why!)

Otherwise, I totally agree!

My next thought would be why was the student sent solo if he wasn't aware of this?

[Airflow]

My next thought would be why was the student sent solo if he wasn't aware of this?

Good question... I can't answer because I didn't send him solo! (Wasn't avaliable for the booking.) Having said that, I did mention before that this student was constantly reminded to use full power. I guess he had to see for himeself.

But, at least he learned!