Air Canada cuts 2000 jobs

[THEICEMAN]

just goes to show that the company is yet again the poorly run jelly donut of the sky

:

[anonymity]

jjj wrote;
I am also hoping that AC will avoid going back into bankrupcy protection again because 2009 could easily turn into a bloodbath if AC goes after WS in nasty ways when they don't have to pay their bills. That kind of business is destructive to the whole industry.

Compared 5 mins ago all on July 1 travel;
Greyhound bus WJ AC
YYZ-YVR 403.73 337.75 327.25
YYZ-YYC 378.16 285.25 295.75
YWG-YYC 180.34 190.75 190.75
YWG-YVR 230.58 274.75 274.75

What is more destructive to the Airline Business, less than bus fare travel? These prices are all inclusive of the fees and there were only 1 or 2 flights on WJ with this fare, where as, there were more flights to choose from at this fare on AC. In my opinion low cost carriers are at fault for this.

[E-Flyer]

...........Fly the god damn thing at low power and let the wind do the rest

disconnect the autothrottle? ARE YOU MAD?

No the ones cutting 2000 jobs are. I just think of ideas

[tonysoprano]

When times are good they are bad. When times are bad , well it's fun. Have fun kids. A few months from now, when times are good, they'll still be bad according to you. For the past 70 years this has been the way. I'm yawning. I'm bored. Been through this more times than I care to remember. Survived the seventies, eighties, the perfect storm.... For those who just like to slam, keep slamming. This is a good time for you. But in the end the boredum continues. Someday, maybe, you'll see the light.

[Wacko]

When times are good they are bad. When times are bad , well it's fun. Have fun kids. A few months from now, when times are good, they'll still be bad according to you. For the past 70 years this has been the way. I'm yawning. I'm bored. Been through this more times than I care to remember. Survived the seventies, eighties, the perfect storm.... For those who just like to slam, keep slamming. This is a good time for you. But in the end the boredum continues. Someday, maybe, you'll see the light.

Amen! The only problem is guys in their 20's who feel they know the world will end.... at midnight

[tonysoprano]

...they too will learn. we all did.

[E-Flyer]

When times are good they are bad. When times are bad , well it's fun. Have fun kids. A few months from now, when times are good, they'll still be bad according to you. For the past 70 years this has been the way. I'm yawning. I'm bored. Been through this more times than I care to remember. Survived the seventies, eighties, the perfect storm.... For those who just like to slam, keep slamming. This is a good time for you. But in the end the boredum continues. Someday, maybe, you'll see the light.

I hope you realize i was joking about the contribution to global warming with the jetstream results

[SQ]

main cut will concern passenger agents and ramp "ACGHS"
we all know more in few weeks anyway

[bmc]

FWIW

Just ran into a colleague at work that was at an industry meeting last week in NYC. They had an airline panel discussing the price of fuel and its impact. Both Continental and Cathay said that on average, for a long haul flight running at 80% load factor, fuel is costing $1,000 per passenger.

[scrambled_legs]

Both Continental and Cathay said that on average, for a long haul flight running at 80% load factor, fuel is costing $1,000 per passenger.

Uh, where do people get these numbers. 80% is probably a pretty average load factor and right now you can find tickets for $600 Canada-London return + tax. This is a pretty average distance long haul flight, so if the fuel has risen $1,000 per panssenger (sounds like one way) the price will shortly be $2,600 return. So factor in the cost of the aircraft, crew, office space, gate rental, advertising etc. to the old price and of the $300 that you were paying one way, at the very most $200 is going towards the price of fuel and more like $75. If that's the case, the price of fuel has just risen 1,000-2,500% I'd say if this is true, Continental and Cathay better switch fuelers, cause they are getting raped... either that or this is just another one of those, I have a friend who knows a guy, who dated a girl, who rode an elevator with the chief of the airline and he said...

[bmc]

Both Continental and Cathay said that on average, for a long haul flight running at 80% load factor, fuel is costing $1,000 per passenger.

Uh, where do people get these numbers. 80% is probably a pretty average load factor and right now you can find tickets for $600 Canada-London return + tax. This is a pretty average distance long haul flight, so if the fuel has risen $1,000 per panssenger (sounds like one way) the price will shortly be $2,600 return. So factor in the cost of the aircraft, crew, office space, gate rental, advertising etc. to the old price and of the $300 that you were paying one way, at the very most $200 is going towards the price of fuel and more like $75. If that's the case, the price of fuel has just risen 1,000-2,500% I'd say if this is true, Continental and Cathay better switch fuelers, cause they are getting raped... either that or this is just another one of those, I have a friend who knows a guy, who dated a girl, who rode an elevator with the chief of the airline and he said...

Canada to London is a pretty average long haul? YMX-LHR is roughly 6hours. YVR-LHR is roughly 9 hours. CO and CX do not fly Canada to London nonstop. Round trip YVR-LON for $600 in peak season? Really? You sure about that? Sounds like a bankruptcy sale.

You make an assumption that there is a relationship between airline pricing and cost. Are you new to this?

[scrambled_legs]

I didn't say from YVR, I'm sure that'd be a little more. YYZ to London, flights are almost always around $600 plus taxes. I've never paid significantly more at any time of the year.

$599.00 + $448.00 taxes = $1047.00 per person

Depart Toronto (YYZ)
21 July at 9:50pm

Arrive Gatwick (LGW)
22 July at 9:55am
Air Transat
Flight 122
AIR TRANSAT - hour(s) minutes
Depart Gatwick (LGW)
28 July at 11:40am

Arrive Toronto (YYZ)
28 July at 2:45pm
Air Transat
Flight 723

Air Transat as well as several other carriers have been offering these prices for years and unless I'm missing the headline, they have no plans for bankruptcy in the near future. Gas didn't suddenly become more valuable then gold per ounce, it doubled in longer than a year. So a $600 ticket should increase to $1000 at most, not $2600.

They're not Jetsgo and there is a relationship between pricing and cost in carriers that last more than a year. Like I said before, throwing around numbers like $1,000 increase per passenger in fuel costs alone, is complete BS ,and just another one of the rumor mill spin offs that everyone loves to jump aboard. Now I'm sure that bmc will come back and verify that the number is in fact correct cause his other friend who runs a gas station fueled a boat for a pilot, who once flew in the jump seat of an airline, that was once owned by this guy, who was also sleeping with the girl, who rode the elevator with the chief of the airline, and he said the same thing.

Unless you handle Continental or Cathay's books and you obviously don't have an ulterior motive to make me believe you're paying more than you are (which all airlines do), I won't believe a word you say. I'll pay my $600 and if you're still there next year, you obviously paid less than $400 in gas for my seat.

[bmc]

Now I'm sure that bmc will come back and verify that the number is in fact correct cause his other friend who runs a gas station fueled a boat for a pilot, who once flew in the jump seat of an airline, that was once owned by this guy, who was also sleeping with the girl, who rode the elevator with the chief of the airline, and he said the same thing.

So, what's your motivation for sounding like a total jerk off today?

[square]

scrambled_legs, he didnt say it went up $1000, he said it cost $1000 per pax on a long haul flight. And a long haul could be 18 hours.

[Flaperons]

dark dave, you're an idiot. I jump on AC all the time, and the service is exactly as it should be. It may not be the superficial bubblegum that WJ offers, but it is definitely acceptable. You should try some of the US majors... By the way, I'm not slamming WJ. They do what they do; some people like their style, some don't. And the idea of WJ buying AC is just stupid.

WJ has tried to emulate Southwest's model, and for the most part, it is working. Southwest is the only "major" in the US making any money right now. This is because they hedged their fuel, so are not subject to the skyrocketing prices right now. That being said, their hedge has about 8 months at their current rate; then their costs begin to rise. It's interesting to note that SW now has the highest paid pax fleet pilots in the US. Their current rates will only work for so long then they'll start feeling the crunch.

The real problem here is not solely the price of oil, nor is it contract negotiations. We all know what created this situation: Deregulation. The fact is that aviation is a horrible industry. No one in the know would ever recommend you buy airline stock, even in the good times. It's a terrible investment. And that's the problem; our national airline infrastructure is being handled as an investment, rather than as a necessity of life. 20 years ago, I could buy a ticket from YYZ to LAX on a major and it cost about $700. Today, the same ticket can be bought for around $700. Does that make any sense to anyone? At the same time, due to wage concessions and the termination of pensions, flag carrier pilots in the United States are making approximately 50% of what they made 10 years ago. Which brings up one MAJOR difference between AC and WJ. Pension. AC pilots have one, WJ boys and girls don't. HUGE, IMMENSE, COLOSSAL difference! Are any of you suggesting ACPA should give that up to level the field? Of course not. It's a disgrace that US pilots were hoodwinked into that shitty deal. Let's pray ACPA doesn't someday do the same.

Deregulation led to low-cost carriers. Low-costs carriers led to ridiculously low ticket prices. Low ticket prices led to ultrathin margins. Ultrathin margins lead to disaster when unforeseen costs balloon. The fact of the matter is that ticket prices are way too low, and have been for a very long time. As I said earlier, my planes are full to the brim 95% of the time, yet the airline's losing money on every flight. The way the industry has so abruptly turned from hiring frenzy to layoffs is a matter of case in point. So now the majors are moving towards capacity reductions, and eventually, mergers. This will, in time, allow them to raise prices. The days of some idiot paying $300 to fly across the country (then having the gall to complain about the service! Like, seriously!!!) are coming to an end. What we pilots need to do is protect what we still have. If the choice is layoffs vs. decreased wages/termination of pension, choose layoffs!!! Eventually it will turn around, the pilot shortage will again be a reality, and the pilot group as a whole will be in the power position.

We each spent years of our lives, and huge sums of money to become professionals, yet we are treated like assembly-line workers. This is our fault; we let it happen. I point this out because the storm ahead will once again lead to pilots being asked to make sacrifices. I pray that this time, we do not give in.

[scrambled_legs]

Nothing personal bmc... you're just guilty of getting caught up in the worry of the world and passing along what others tell you without questioning it first. I just get a little frustrated at the rumor mill when a little common sense and simple math will squash the rumor rather than pass it around. We're all guilty of it at times, including myself, but if you thought about it, gas going up 100% over a year doesn't dictate a 2000% increase in fuel costs. I was just exaggerating how rumors develop with a little bit of humor and how by noon on Sunday there'll be a new book out called the $3 million hamburger to replace the $100 hamburger; fly-in restaurant guide.

Just to clear it up, does anyone know what a Boeing or Airbus will burn per hour at cruise and what Jet A costs right now? A simple calculation of seats vs approximate L/hr would tell you what they're really spending.

[scrambled_legs]

OK so I found a figure for Liters/100 passenger kms (pkms) in this report: http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/downloa ... n_2005.pdf

Correct me if I'm wrong but on page 5 of the report it shows, 4.29l/100pkm, I believe this is Lufthansa's average fuel cost per 100 passenger kms for all flights in 2004. If I'm translating this correctly this is for all flights short and long haul and we all know that short haul uses significantly more fuel than long haul per nm. So if we use this figure, we'll be on the heavy side of what the actual cost is. It is 5728 km from Toronto to London, (is this an average long haul distance?) so they use approximately 245L of Jet A to fly someone from Toronto to London. At $2/liter (I'm guessing here, hopefully on the high end), the cost is approximately $490/ per passenger one way. These numbers are the extreme high end though, as many of Lufthansa's flights involve short hops around Europe climbing and descending, without ever cruising and I believe the long hauls usually have a higher load factor than short hauls as well. If the average fuel burn cost is $490 for that distance, I wouldn't be surprised if the long hauls are close to half of that. So the real number could be anywhere from $250-$500. Higher than I had suspected but still half to a quarter of what your buddy was claiming. In order to match his claims your average long haul would have to be around 15,000km long. I imagine that Air Transat recoups their losses somehow through the $500 in taxes, somehow they're still making money at $300 one way.

[Redwine]

dark dave, you're an idiot. I jump on AC all the time, and the service is exactly as it should be. It may not be the superficial bubblegum that WJ offers, but it is definitely acceptable. You should try some of the US majors... By the way, I'm not slamming WJ. They do what they do; some people like their style, some don't. And the idea of WJ buying AC is just stupid.

WJ has tried to emulate Southwest's model, and for the most part, it is working. Southwest is the only "major" in the US making any money right now. This is because they hedged their fuel, so are not subject to the skyrocketing prices right now. That being said, their hedge has about 8 months at their current rate; then their costs begin to rise. It's interesting to note that SW now has the highest paid pax fleet pilots in the US. Their current rates will only work for so long then they'll start feeling the crunch.

The real problem here is not solely the price of oil, nor is it contract negotiations. We all know what created this situation: Deregulation. The fact is that aviation is a horrible industry. No one in the know would ever recommend you buy airline stock, even in the good times. It's a terrible investment. And that's the problem; our national airline infrastructure is being handled as an investment, rather than as a necessity of life. 20 years ago, I could buy a ticket from YYZ to LAX on a major and it cost about $700. Today, the same ticket can be bought for around $700. Does that make any sense to anyone? At the same time, due to wage concessions and the termination of pensions, flag carrier pilots in the United States are making approximately 50% of what they made 10 years ago. Which brings up one MAJOR difference between AC and WJ. Pension. AC pilots have one, WJ boys and girls don't. HUGE, IMMENSE, COLOSSAL difference! Are any of you suggesting ACPA should give that up to level the field? Of course not. It's a disgrace that US pilots were hoodwinked into that shitty deal. Let's pray ACPA doesn't someday do the same.

Deregulation led to low-cost carriers. Low-costs carriers led to ridiculously low ticket prices. Low ticket prices led to ultrathin margins. Ultrathin margins lead to disaster when unforeseen costs balloon. The fact of the matter is that ticket prices are way too low, and have been for a very long time. As I said earlier, my planes are full to the brim 95% of the time, yet the airline's losing money on every flight. The way the industry has so abruptly turned from hiring frenzy to layoffs is a matter of case in point. So now the majors are moving towards capacity reductions, and eventually, mergers. This will, in time, allow them to raise prices. The days of some idiot paying $300 to fly across the country (then having the gall to complain about the service! Like, seriously!!!) are coming to an end. What we pilots need to do is protect what we still have. If the choice is layoffs vs. decreased wages/termination of pension, choose layoffs!!! Eventually it will turn around, the pilot shortage will again be a reality, and the pilot group as a whole will be in the power position.

We each spent years of our lives, and huge sums of money to become professionals, yet we are treated like assembly-line workers. This is our fault; we let it happen. I point this out because the storm ahead will once again lead to pilots being asked to make sacrifices. I pray that this time, we do not give in.

You should run for union rep. Great post!

[bmc]

Nothing personal bmc... you're just guilty of getting caught up in the worry of the world and passing along what others tell you without questioning it first. I just get a little frustrated at the rumor mill when a little common sense and simple math will squash the rumor rather than pass it around. We're all guilty of it at times, including myself, but if you thought about it, gas going up 100% over a year doesn't dictate a 2000% increase in fuel costs. I was just exaggerating how rumors develop with a little bit of humor and how by noon on Sunday there'll be a new book out called the $3 million hamburger to replace the $100 hamburger; fly-in restaurant guide.

Just to clear it up, does anyone know what a Boeing or Airbus will burn per hour at cruise and what Jet A costs right now? A simple calculation of seats vs approximate L/hr would tell you what they're really spending.

To be honest, I'm not really worried about it at all. The impending downsizing will be good for the industry. There is too much capacity chasing too few passengers. Congestion at US airports will loosen up. Parking airplanes will reduce capacity in a lot of markets and enable yields to improve. It's not a bad scene. Unless you work for an airline. Jobs will be lost in the next twelve months.

Once summer is over, the fall is going to ugly. Low season will set in. Consumers will feel the pinch of fuel prices and possible food price increases because of transportation costs.

I think many carriers will weather this quite well. A lot of US carriers are well hedged. There will be continued bankruptcies. We're up to 26 carriers so far this year around the world, most of them small.

Two years ago, fuel accounted for 20% of an airlines costs. Today it's at 40%. It's a bit of a concern with the airlines right now.

[Chris]

Not so fancy Excel Calculator..... Shows approx fuel cost per passenger on many different types.

$1000 per pax on a long haul seems pretty correct for some operators.


It wont let me upload an XLS file....so PDF will have to do.

Let me know if anyone wants the XLS file to play around with.

[C-GPFG]

main cut will concern passenger agents and ramp "ACGHS"
we all know more in few weeks anyway

There isn't enough ground crews in YYZ now. Can't imagine working with less.

[It's about time]

On another note Westjet seems to be still growing, and making smart business choices, it doesn't seem like rocket science to me.
/

AC did hedge fuel - so you can't say they didn't see it coming. But hedges expire and must be renegotiated.

You can't compare Westjet's business model to AC - not an apples to apples comparison. Not saying AC has done everything right but when you have ONE fleet type and primarily fly domestic with some transboarder you have COST ADVANTAGES. This is rocket science.

[It's about time]

everybody seems to be missing the point!!!????!!!

for any business to be competative....they must offer a certain level of customer service.

Anyone who travels regularily will, I'm sure agree, that that West Jet kicks AC butt when it comes to taking care of their customers.

.

Do us all a favour and just don't fly. You sound like a real treat. Kinda of like my mother in law - Impossible to please.

Union bucks...thats a good one, where can I get them? From the union?....nope I pay them, the airline pays me!

[It's about time]

dont work for WJ...(shareholder)

great company...they(WJ) even put up with an ass like me!...and make me money...keep up the good work

Now you're a Westjet shareholder who flies AC enough to comment on their customer service. Either you're extremely confused and don't support you're 'owned' airline or you use AC because they're the only show in town. I guess AC will be around for a few more years if the later is true. Otherwise put the bong down and float back to earth.

[It's about time]

I think it's all bull. Too conveinent with the contracts up in 09. I just did a flight from LGA to YYZ in an A319 at 16,000ft. So much for Fuel costs are killing us. Wx/winds we're not a factor for keeping us low. Go figure!

AC has an extremly intricate and all encompassing fuel conservation strategy - all pilots and dispatchers know it and use it. But you wouldn't know this. I'm actually surprised how slow other airlines have adopted one.

So with this in mind there would have to be an operational necessity (althought that seems too low) to fly that low. Could be weather but you obviously were briefed on the weather/winds to make that call. No offense but this is another backseat pilot making their best educated assessment of their flight.

Believe me, things like this don't happen without a very good reason. So the way I look at it; if they actually did fly at 16,000 ft. you still got to where you were going and the company spent more to do it. They should have cancelled it with these paramaters in mind but they didn't. Problem is you're still not happy. AC will never win.