Could high oil prices be a good thing?

[360montana]

Am I alone in viewing the rise in oil prices as an "opportunity" to break the mold. For years we have known that fossil fuels are a limited resource and contribute to greenhouse emmissions that are harmful to the enviroment. We can also see that aviation is one of the hardest hit and a large contributor to the problem. We have become dependant on the technology and the convienance afforded to us by air travel. Why then do we not use this time of ecomomical and enviromental uncertianty to develop a powerplant that is not bound by the same flaws our current developments are limited by. If a new powerplant could be developed and retro fitted into the existing aircraft and alltogether new aircraft designed with all state of the art technologys, could this not be a good thing for the industry. I like the idea of flying new aircraft... I also like the idea of not transporting tons of flamables every time I fly... and to take the power away from supplyers of the oil which is the basis of much of todays problems sounds like an avenue worth investigating. You may have all seen this before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk
Maybe I am a dreamer. I admit my understanding of the technology is limited, but can't we make something of this? In the meantime My love for flying shall continue to bind me to the faults in the Aviation Industry.

[light chop]

Give some hard facts on how aviation is a large contributor to greenhouse gases. I read this:

“Domestic aviation accounts for almost four per cent of Canada’s transportation greenhouse gas emissions,”

Note the word "transportation" in there.

Okay then - where's the other 96% coming from?

[sky's the limit]

Okay then - where's the other 96% coming from?

Bicycles?

[Hedley]

bovine flatulence?

[ottawa,kan]

Obviously most is cars. Then trucks. Then ships. Then trains. Then busses. Then motorcycles. Then Niss on his moped.

[jetmech]

Please don't say that high prices are a good thing. First it's all lies. Second, I'm getting sick and tired of all the whole "We must find an Alternate fuel source" gang. If the Weather Network can tell me what the weather is like on Mars, then we have an alternate fuel source too. We won't ever see one because to many people, Government included are making to much money. This whole Green crap is another farce meant to gouge the population so a few can make Millions if not Billions. Well I do agree that we should take care of our environment, it does not need to be handled like it's Armageddon. David Suzuki and Al Gore, and that A$$hole Dion need to be shot for starters. We have made great environmental strides since even the 70's. Cars are way cleaner and so our Aircraft. Look at those CFM-56's compared to say a JT-8. These electric cars are more harmfull to the environment than gas is. Sulfuric acid is going to be great for the land fill, and lets not forget about whats involved in making the damn things. This change needs to be moderate, not overnight by taxing the whole country out of employment.

[v6g]

The two most likely (or rather the least unlikely) replacements for oil that I see are:
1) Nuclear fusion. Still a long way away with some major hurdles but some significant progress has been made in the last few years.

2) Large scale uranium extraction from sea water. A Japanese program is working on this - already working on a very small scale.

These are the only two things that look anything like a sensible alternative to oil.

[small penguin]

I for one would love to swap the O-235 out for something that didnt burn gas. But...

1) There are no substitutes as far as I know
2) It'll be a long time before GA goes green
3) Likely alternatives will either give too low a flight time, or too low an airspeed
4) Likely alternatives will probably also cost twice what the airframe is worth (and its not a poor airframe)

[Highflyinpilot]

Nope, not a good thing at all, when fuel goes up everything else goes up(transportation cost), airfare goes up, less pax that fly due to the hike in airfare, your job is gone.(In a nut shell)


Not a good thing at all.

[Grantmac]

The only half-way decent aspect is that general aviation aircraft are getting cheaper, this is because less and less people can afford the fuel bills
As for alternative technologies they are mostly unrealistic. That said there is an electric self-launch sailplane on the market and an electric trike engine option.
I don't see why more effort isn't being put into simple, cheap diesels. They are nearly the perfect aircraft engine.
Cheers,
Grant

[square]

3) Likely alternatives will either give too low a flight time, or too low an airspeed

Damn right, this new wave shit isn't gonna go and change my airspeed, neither up nor down!

[small penguin]

Ideally, I'd like to ride a scooter. We have one, 49cc goes to 65kph gets about... 80km per tank. Looked at a few electrics. They go ~30km per charge (which I dont mind since I'd use it to get to the airport only) but they top out at 35kph. Yea thats useful on the streets..

I saw an article (I think somewhere on these forums) about an aircraft engine run solely on battery power. It provided a day VFR flight of an hour only, plus the 30 minute reserve. I forget what the speed was, but I'd bet it'd be comparable to a slow ultralight.

[niss]

Obviously most is cars. Then trucks. Then ships. Then trains. Then busses. Then motorcycles. Then Niss on his moped.

I used to have an ebike. The only emmission was when I farted.

[E-Flyer]

Okay then - where's the other 96% coming from?

Bicycles?

I was more thinking that it would be our fridges and air conditionners. Afterall, the warming is gonna get worse. Does that mean A/C's become illegal?

[sidestick stirrer]

with a day to kill, between my IPF and the subsequent PPC at Alteon, I drove in my nine-year-old TDi from the hotel to the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field.
After leaving there, I drove up the long, level road on the east side of the airport, watching my instantaneous MPG and GPH readout on the aftermarket ScanGauge II.
This tired car, with over a quarter of a million klicks on it, was indicating 85-100mpg when driven in fifth gear at a steady 60kph.
Yes, the cost to fill it has risen from under $40 to almost $70, but it still goes 1000 kilometers on that in the summer ( slightly less in the winter) so I still can't complain.
I was using biodiesel for awhile, just to think I was making a difference, but its cetane rating is lower than pure diesel and now the price delta is so small it's not worth it.
Sure wonder what the cellphone-yacking girl in the Expedition that's blasting by me on the freeway going the limit +++ is thinking about.......

[Four1oh]

Okay then - where's the other 96% coming from?

I'm going to go with Transport trucks and trains, there's an easy 40-50%. The rest'll be personal vehicles.

[Grantmac]

with a day to kill, between my IPF and the subsequent PPC at Alteon, I drove in my nine-year-old TDi from the hotel to the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field.
After leaving there, I drove up the long, level road on the east side of the airport, watching my instantaneous MPG and GPH readout on the aftermarket ScanGauge II.
This tired car, with over a quarter of a million klicks on it, was indicating 85-100mpg when driven in fifth gear at a steady 60kph.
Yes, the cost to fill it has risen from under $40 to almost $70, but it still goes 1000 kilometers on that in the summer ( slightly less in the winter) so I still can't complain.
I was using biodiesel for awhile, just to think I was making a difference, but its cetane rating is lower than pure diesel and now the price delta is so small it's not worth it.
Sure wonder what the cellphone-yacking girl in the Expedition that's blasting by me on the freeway going the limit +++ is thinking about.......

I have a TDi as well. Amazing engine in an okay chassis. I find that how I drive it has relatively little affect on it's overall MPG though, I'm almost always getting 45-48 (US) MPG with it
I personally think that for an experimental aircraft a VW TDi engine would probably make an awesome engine, just have to dry-sump it and run it with the cylinders down.
Cheers,
Grant

[Hedley]

You want to reduce our dependence on (foreign, expensive)
oil, and reduce greenhouse gases? Easy.

Build 100 nuclear power plants. Start right now. They'll
produce an enormous amount of electricity, which can
be used in the big cities to power electric cars, which are
suitable for the short-range daily mileage in the big cities.

This would vastly reduce pollution in the big cities, too.

But no one would ever do it, because they don't have
the cajones to go up against the militant volvo-driving
enviro-nazis who are opposed to EVERYTHING including
nuclear power and probably even free beer during happy
hour.

The root cause is over-population, but no one wants
to hear that, either.

[Four1oh]

homework for the day: try and convince an activist that the world would have cleaner air if they held their breath for 10 minutes...

[jetflightinstructor]

homework for the day: try and convince an activist that the world would have cleaner air if they held their breath for 10 minutes...

Maybe... But at least their breath won' t give you any cancer...

[2R]

[quote="Hedley"]You want to reduce our dependence on (foreign, expensive)
oil, and reduce greenhouse gases? Easy.

Build 100 nuclear power plants. Start right now. They'll
produce an enormous amount of electricity, which can
be used in the big cities to power electric cars, which are
suitable for the short-range daily mileage in the big cities.

This would vastly reduce pollution in the big cities, too.

But no one would ever do it, because they don't have
the cajones to go up against the militant volvo-driving
enviro-nazis who are opposed to EVERYTHING including
nuclear power and probably even free beer during happy
hour.

The root cause is over-population, but no one wants
to hear that, either.[/quote




Nuclear leaks would help solve the over-population as well

[sidestick stirrer]

[

"I have a TDi as well. Amazing engine in an okay chassis."

yes, terrific powerplant in a car that handles like a street-legal gokart to me.

" I find that how I drive it has relatively little affect on it's overall MPG though, I'm almost always getting 45-48 (US) MPG with it"

I'm converting back to imperial gallons, so my figures would be +/- 20% greater than yours. If the mileage isn't varying much, it's usually from driving the same route.


Using the ScanGauge was a revelation: it appears the most-efficient way to accelerate from a stop is to go first-second, then bring in the turbo to get to 4000rpm in a hurry, then shift right into fifth gear, as long as no further acceleration is required or you're not on a hill. It's made a huge difference so far: I've used about 3/8th of a tank and gone 650 kms so far.
The best I've ever done with the little car was driving from Calgary back to Vancouver, then driving around the 'burb for several days, then a couple of trips out to YVR, then, finally, on a drive into Langley, the low-fuel warning appeared, 1250 kms since fill up.

" personally think that for an experimental aircraft a VW TDi engine would probably make an awesome engine, just have to dry-sump it and run it with the cylinders down."

You may recall that the original VW diesel used in the Rabbit was converted to a marine engine, I don't know how successful that was.
The biggest problem with converting an auto diesel is that a reduction drive is required. Even if it wasn't the crankshaft/crankcase was not designed to withstand thrust loads in a direct-drive application, with a reduction drive, then that needs to be designed to absorb the thrust of the propellor to be able to transmit it to the engine mount.
Aviation Consumer magazine recently had a long, in-depth look at the numbers for diesel vs. conventional avgas engines, and it was the cost of the reduction drive needing inspection at 300 hours and overhaul well before the engine does that made it unattractive.
A diesel that can produce the required power at a low-enough rpm to not require a gearbox would be prohibitively heavy.
Cheers,
Grant[/quote]

[randallg]

More people have died in the back of Ted Kennedy's car than in the entire history of the US/Canadian nuclear power industry.

[Grantmac]

[

"I have a TDi as well. Amazing engine in an okay chassis."

yes, terrific powerplant in a car that handles like a street-legal gokart to me.

" I find that how I drive it has relatively little affect on it's overall MPG though, I'm almost always getting 45-48 (US) MPG with it"

I'm converting back to imperial gallons, so my figures would be +/- 20% greater than yours. If the mileage isn't varying much, it's usually from driving the same route.


Using the ScanGauge was a revelation: it appears the most-efficient way to accelerate from a stop is to go first-second, then bring in the turbo to get to 4000rpm in a hurry, then shift right into fifth gear, as long as no further acceleration is required or you're not on a hill. It's made a huge difference so far: I've used about 3/8th of a tank and gone 650 kms so far.
The best I've ever done with the little car was driving from Calgary back to Vancouver, then driving around the 'burb for several days, then a couple of trips out to YVR, then, finally, on a drive into Langley, the low-fuel warning appeared, 1250 kms since fill up.

" personally think that for an experimental aircraft a VW TDi engine would probably make an awesome engine, just have to dry-sump it and run it with the cylinders down."

You may recall that the original VW diesel used in the Rabbit was converted to a marine engine, I don't know how successful that was.
The biggest problem with converting an auto diesel is that a reduction drive is required. Even if it wasn't the crankshaft/crankcase was not designed to withstand thrust loads in a direct-drive application, with a reduction drive, then that needs to be designed to absorb the thrust of the propellor to be able to transmit it to the engine mount.
Aviation Consumer magazine recently had a long, in-depth look at the numbers for diesel vs. conventional avgas engines, and it was the cost of the reduction drive needing inspection at 300 hours and overhaul well before the engine does that made it unattractive.
A diesel that can produce the required power at a low-enough rpm to not require a gearbox would be prohibitively heavy.
Cheers,
Grant

[/quote]


sidestick stirrer: I'm going to give that a try. I wouldn't think getting the revs up like that would work well but I'm going to do it for the next tank full.

I've seen IDI (rabbit/jetta) diesels used to run generators before.
The TDi motor can produce a minimum of ~130HP@3000RPM and do it for thousands of hours, so no reduction drive is really needed. The idea behind inverting it was that you could take the power directly from the crank. You would just mount a thrust bearing on a plate that bolts to the block where the bellhousing originally mounted.
As for weight, I do believe that a TDi longblock with manifolds is under 300lbs, that puts it installed at under 400lbs FWF.
Sure it's not a minimum weight/maximum performance option, but it is totally viable.
I'm no kind of an engineer but the engine is really well suited to aircraft use.

As for the Centurion diesel engines being basically the same cost as a gasoline engine it's definately true. But those are conplicated, ECU controlled, reduction driven engines. This is the worst possible use for a diesel. The best part of a diesel is that it doesn't need to rev to make power. It doesn't need electronics to work efficiently. Even the most basic are altitude compensating and require no carb-heat.
A mechanical diesel, 2-stroke, large enough to be direct driven is a very viable cost saving alternative. Fortunately there is one that has been developed and will be available in the forseeable future:
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/
Don't look at the fuel savings to see the whole story, look at the rebuild costs.
Cheers,
Grant

P.S. I'm kind of a diesel-head and thats why I tend to champion them wherever possible.

[C-FABH]

Okay then - where's the other 96% coming from?

CYTZ -- d'uh! Keep the Gardiner Expressway, close the Island Airport